535 - Join Us in France Travel Podcast

Categories: Normandy & Brittany, Off the Beaten Track in France, Paris

Introduction and Anniversary Adventure

[00:00:16] Annie: This is Join Us in France, episode 535, cinq cent trente cinq.

Bonjour, I’m Annie Sargent, and Join Us in France is the podcast where we take a conversational journey through the beauty, culture, and flavors of France.

Today on the podcast

[00:00:31] Annie: Today, I bring you a conversation with Gina Angelillo about her unforgettable anniversary adventure in France.

Join us as we explore the charming streets of Saint Malo, savor delicious French cuisine, stroll through smaller museums, and dive into the rich history of Normandy.

Podcast supporters

[00:00:50] Annie: This podcast is supported by donors and listeners who buy my tours and services, including my Itinerary Consult Service, my GPS self-guided tours of Paris on the VoiceMap app, or take a day trip with me around the southwest of France in my electric car.

You can browse all of that at my boutique joinusinfrance.com/boutique.

And remember, Patreon supporters get the podcast ad-free and as soon as it is ready. Click on the link in the show notes to enjoy this Patreon reward for as little as $3 per month.

Magazine segment

[00:01:25] Annie: For the magazine part of the podcast, after my chat with Gina today, I’ll discuss something very strange happening with population shifts. I wonder if you know how big some of these French cities are.

Annie and Gina

[00:01:47] Annie: Bonjour Gina Angelillo and welcome to join us in France.

[00:01:52] Gina: Bonjour, happy to be here.

[00:01:53] Annie: Wonderful to talk to you today. We are going to talk about your anniversary adventure. You explored Normandy, Saint-Malo and Paris. So this was which anniversary for you?

[00:02:05] Gina: It was our 23rd.

[00:02:07] Annie: Fun. Okay. And have you been to France a lot or was this new?

[00:02:11] Gina: So my husband and I both went separately when we graduated college. So that was a million years ago. And then I actually went with my girlfriends when we turned 50 last year in November. And we had such a great time. We were in Paris for a week, and so this year, in October, I went with my husband.

[00:02:30] Annie: Fun. Okay.

Exploring Saint-Malo

[00:02:31] Annie: So feel free to mention both of those trips. Obviously, you know, it’s a different, but you know, if you have good recommendations for people, I’m sure they’ll be happy to hear it, even if it wasn’t on your anniversary trip. All right. So I asked you, like I do everybody, to tell me what they liked most about their trip.

The first thing you mentioned is walking the ramparts in Saint-Malo.

[00:02:54] Gina: We loved Saint-Malo. I did read ‘All the Light We Cannot See’, so I was kind of excited to go there, and it’s way more beautiful than I even expected, and we just had a great day walking. It was very sunny and warm, we had coffee down at the beach, there were people taking out kayaks, and we just, you know, took a lot of pictures, and I just loved how laid back it was.

We didn’t really do anything special, but it was just a beautiful day.

[00:03:20] Annie: Right. And if the weather cooperates, which is not always a given in Saint-Malo, but if the weather is good, that’s fantastic. Yeah, it’s a beautiful place. And it’s just full of atmosphere, I guess. It’s one of these cities that it was rebuilt after, it was mostly rebuilt after World War II, but they rebuilt it in the same way it had been before.

And I think it looks glorious.

[00:03:43] Gina: It’s beautiful. It had so much charm. It exceeded my expectations entirely. We, you know, the little cafes outside where you can have a coffee or a drink. After that day walking the ramparts, we sat, I don’t remember what it’s called, but it’s, there’s that strip where it’s all of these restaurants and cafes, really pretty right by the Ramparts, like on and built against the wall there.

And we went somewhere and I had mussels and French fries and it was beautiful. It was gorgeous. We were lucky to have her. Yeah.

[00:04:11] Annie: So this was in early October, so it wasn’t too busy, I assume. I mean, I’m sure there were people out, but not lots and lots.

[00:04:19] Gina: No, I thought it was perfect. There was a lot of people, so you didn’t feel like, you know, it was a ghost town or anything, but we had no trouble getting into restaurants andfinding a table at a cafe or anything like that. It was nice.

[00:04:31] Annie: Fantastic. Fantastic. All right.

Charming Streets and Churches

[00:04:33] Annie: So the second thing you mentioned is trolling around beautiful streets of each city, finding charming spots, ducking into churches. So you enjoy visiting churches as well?

[00:04:43] Gina: Yes, we went into almost every church we passed, you know, just to pop in and just take a look. You know, it’s just, we don’t have that kind of majesty in the US, so it was special. Just kind of walking around, light a candle, you know, take some pictures and back out.

[00:05:00] Annie: Yeah, yeah, yeah, and they’re free in France, so you don’t need a ticket or you don’t need anything. You can just, if it’s open, which is sometimes it’s not, but if it’s open, you can enjoy looking around the church and doing some contemplation if you’re so inclined. Fantastic.

[00:05:17] Gina: And sometimes it was really funny. We were walking in the Latin Quarter and we turned this corner, it was the day that it was like teeming rain, you know, and I’m standing there and I look and I was like, that’s the church from that movie, Midnight in Paris, and I could recognize the stairs and everything.

It was like so exciting.

And they were having a little like event inside with music that night.

[00:05:37] Annie: So that church is called Saint Étienne du Mont, and it’s right by the Pantheon for people who want to do this. And it is totally the steps, it’s on the side of the church, those are the steps that if you watch Midnight in Paris, he went to wait for the taxi every night.

It’s epic. Epic.

[00:05:55] Gina: Yeah. Yep. Yep. And it was it looks just like from the movie, obviously it does, but it was kind of fun. We turned the corner and I was like: Stop!!

[00:06:03] Annie: That’s great. That’s great.

French Cuisine Delights

[00:06:07] Annie: You enjoy French food, it sounds like, because that’s the third thing you listed. And eating fabulous foods in gorgeous settings like mussels I had in Saint-Malo or the oysters in Honfleur.

[00:06:19] Gina: Yes, I’m Italian. My parents are from Italy and we grew up eating everything. So, we love food and definitely sampling French cuisine is top of the list and it did not disappoint. Honfleur is just such a beautiful city and sitting there by the water, again, we had amazing weather every single day, except that one day in Paris, which was unbelievable.

It teemed the entire day, but other than that, it was beautiful. And just sitting in Honfleur in the marina and having oysters, you know, we just felt so lucky. It was wonderful.

[00:06:50] Annie: Right. Most of these cities, really, all you have to do is just go to the city center, go to the historical city center, or the waterfront in the case of a place like Honfleur that has a beach. And typically, you will find all sorts of wonderful things.

Driving Through Normandy

[00:07:07] Annie: Did, I assume you drove yourselves to these locations?

[00:07:11] Gina: Yes, we rented a car. We landed in Paris super early, it was like 6am when we landed, and so we rented a car from the airport and drove right to, I’m going to say this wrong… Rouen?

[00:07:24] Annie: Rouen. Rouen.

[00:07:27] Gina: Our lovely tour guide when we went to the D-Day beaches taught us how to say it correctly, but it’s so hard to say.

[00:07:33] Annie: Yeah, it’s difficult because you have Ou-en, Ou-en, Rouen, and you have the French r as well. So that one, you know, I don’t fault you for not being able to say it, it’s really very specific.

[00:07:47] Gina: That was the hardest. Yeah. And it’s very different from Italian. I speak Italian. It doesn’t help me at all with the French, so, anyway.

Yes, we drove first to Rouen and we were there for the entire day. We had a full day because we got there so early. Loved it!

And then we drove to Honfleur and Bayeux, Mont Saint Michel, Saint-Malo.

[00:08:10] Annie: In Rouen, did you have a thing planned or did you just show up and started looking around?

[00:08:17] Gina: We just showed up and started looking around because I didn’t know how we were going to feel, you know, whether we’d be really tired or I didn’t really know what to expect to be perfectly honest. Our first day I would try to keep it like kind of light. I loved it there. We got there, like I said, so early in our hotel room was ready, so that was great.

We got rid of the car and dropped off our stuff, freshened up a little bit and had a full day. We started to get a little tired in the afternoon and we were just like walking around and having coffee and taking it all in. The shopping is, the stores are, I think it’s the best shopping anywhere.

Yeah. I feel like they took all of the cute shops from Marais and Saint Germain and all of the goods department stores and condensed it into this like small area. I was disappointed that I didn’t take my girlfriends there. It was our first day, so I wasn’t going to, I didn’t want to go shopping and then have to carry stuff around all the whole trip, you know, so I didn’t buy anything.

This is very disappointing, but we started to get tired in the afternoon, so we took that train ride that goes around, you know, it’s very touristy.

[00:09:23] Annie: Right. The little train. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:09:25] Gina: Yeah, and you listen to like an audio, but we loved it. It gave us like a lot of history. It told us about the museums there, which are all free.

So when we finished the train ride, we went over to the Beau Arts Museum, which we loved.We really like the smaller museums, they’re just a lot more manageable. Anyway, so we went to a beautiful dinner there that night. That was just unbelievable. And yeah, we just loved it. All the cathedrals and the history was great.

Hotel vs. Airbnb

[00:09:53] Annie: So I want to mention that all, you listed all the hotels where you stayed, you mentioned that you prefer hotels than Airbnbs, and I want you to tell me why. But so you’ve listed all the hotels where you stayed and also several restaurants where you ate, so I’ll put that in the show notes. But do tell me why do you prefer hotels versus Airbnbs?

Because lots of people wonder which one should I book?

[00:10:17] Gina: Well, you know, definitely I prefer hotels for the ability to drop off your bags, because a lot of times you get to somewhere and you can’t check in until four o’clock. You know, I don’t want to be stuck with my suitcases and I felt like France was very, very safe. I mean, Italy is very safe too, but I wouldn’t really encourage anyone to leave their suitcases in your car in Italy for any prolonged period of time, that’s you’re asking for trouble if you do that.

So, I prefer staying at hotels where I could just drop off my stuff, drop off the car, and I like also having a front desk that can recommend, you know places to go for dinner or, excursions that kind of thing.

I just prefer it.

[00:10:59] Annie: Yeah, it simplifies your life greatly, honestly, because some Airbnbs are very good about giving you suggestions about meeting you earlier, about things like that. But some are just not, like, honestly, and there’s no way to tell because the reviews on Airbnb, I don’t know, I just don’t trust them.

Even places where I’ve gone to stay, it seems like people don’t mention half of the stuff that they should, like, why didn’t anybody say that the elevator it’s teeny tiny, you can only go in with one suitcase at a time.

Like, why didn’t anybody mention that? Because it’s a big deal. Like, you know!And so I think people try to be nice to the host. Like if the host was nice to them, then they want to reciprocate. They want to be nice. They just don’t mention things that they should.

[00:11:49] Gina: I agree. And I, you know, especially a trip like this, where we kind of, we stayed at a number of different hotels. I don’t want to be bothered with an Airbnb. Like, I just want to check in, drop off my stuff, move along, you know, like I don’t need a kitchen. I don’t need anything like that. Yeah, it was good.

[00:12:08] Annie: Yeah. Yeah. On a short trip it’s great. Airbnb has its good points, you know, if you’re traveling with family or with a big group of people, perhaps you’ll have better luck with Airbnb.But yeah, I hear you.

[00:12:21] Gina: I love it when somebody makes me a cup of coffee in the morning too, when I’m on vacation.

[00:12:26] Annie: Yeah, exactly. It’s very true that it gives you more freedom and more time to enjoy what you came here for rather than go shopping, although going shopping for groceries can be interesting in France as well.

[00:12:39] Gina: Yeah, we did enjoy the market.

Cafe Culture in France

[00:12:41] Annie: So, you mentioned in your fourth thing is you enjoy cafe culture.

Like you just mentioned the coffee, the outside seating, especially in Saint-Malo in Paris. These are things you can’t get in the US. That’s what I love, I mean, some places in the US, I’m sure you can get these things, but not everywhere, right? Where’s home for you?

[00:12:59] Gina: New York, and we’re right outside of the city, so we go into the city all the time, and we were just there last weekend. We went to the Met, to see an exhibit there, and afterwards, you know, we were still in a mindset of, you know, cafe culture. Let’s stop and have a coffee, and like a little cafe, and you really can’t do that in New York.

You can’t sit, I listened to your podcast, let me just say, and I learned a lot about café culture from that episode, and I listened to it a few times, because I had several trips planned to France, one that got cancelled in 2020, but I had prepared for it. But in any case, you can’t in New York just sit at like a cafe with service and just order a coffee, you like, you can’t do that.

You have to order a meal. They don’t let you just have an espresso, like you have to go to a coffee shop for that. And then you get it like in a paper cup and there’s no outside seating or anything like it’s to go, you know, so we just loved that whole cafe culture of just being able, like the day that it was teeming rain in Paris, we did a wine and cheese lunch.

It was like a class. And that was really fun. And then afterwards we were walking and we do everything outside, even in the pouring rain. But, like, it eventually started raining so hard, we just pulled over and just had a coffee someplace so pretty. I don’t know where we were. It was in Marais somewhere. And I just love that just being able to pull over, have a glass of wine or have a coffee, and then get up and leave, you know. And I learned from you that if the table isn’t set, you can sit and just have a coffee.

If it’s set, then, you know, that’s for a meal. Yeah. I wish we had that in New York. I really do.

[00:14:39] Annie: So, the episode you mentioned, Cafe Culture, is episode 228 of the podcast. It’s an oldie, but goodie because things don’t change you know, I mean, it’s still the same thing. And at the Met, I was there, recently as well, and at the Met, there is a little cafe at the very top,

[00:14:56] Gina: but it’s like, there’s hardly anywhere to sit, it’s lots of people, and everything is 20 bucks.

And the coffee wasn’t good. I couldn’t really drink it. It wasn’t good.

[00:15:07] Annie: I didn’t order coffee there. What did I order? I don’t remember what I got, but I got something.

[00:15:12] Gina: I got a coffee and a chocolate croissant. I was trying to, like, recreate it. I was like, this isn’t working.

[00:15:17] Annie: Yeah. Yeah. No, but I hear you. It’s not the same cafe culture. The other thing you said is you can pull over. You weren’t in a car. Were you in Paris?

[00:15:26] Gina: No, No, Oh, I meant on foot.

[00:15:28] Annie: On foot. Okay. So yeah, you just stop what you’re doing and go into, duck into a cafe and warm up and enjoy that for a moment. Yeah.

[00:15:37] Gina: Right, just, you know, take a little lube off and then walk.

[00:15:40] Annie: Yeah.

And when you do that, you should, that’s also the time, you shoulduse the bathroom, and wash your hands and also fill your water bottle. This is a thing I have about people who walk around with a giant water bottle because they want enough for the whole day, you really don’t need to do that.

You can walk with some, I mean, you should have some water with you just in case you, I don’t know if you choke on a pretzel or something, butyou can just have a little bottle and then refill it when you go to a cafe, you know, that’s the way.

[00:16:07] Gina: That’s what I did. I just had a disposable water bottle that I would carry in the morning and then, you know, just like refill it and then if I lose it along the way, whatever…

[00:16:16] Annie: It’s fine. Yeah, it’s fine.

Visiting Smaller Museums

[00:16:17] Annie: You mentioned visiting smaller museums like the ones in Honfleur. So do tell about that one. I haven’t been to that one, so I want to hear about it.

[00:16:27] Gina: I don’t even remember what they were called, but there was this really old building right off the marina there in the main part of town. And it was dedicated to their sea history. And you know, everything was in French, so I couldn’t really read it or, but it was beautiful. And just walking around this old, very old, original, it had been a church and they renovated it to be this little museum, just cute. That’s what we like to do. And then it was like a buy one. So we ended up going into another little mini museum there, which was like the history of life in Honfleur at that time. And they, you know, just showed like a real house. There was a prison. Yeah, it was just, it’s nice to just get that little glimpse.

It was all like, you know, period pieces and stuff like that inside.

[00:17:16] Annie: That’s a really good point because, there are a lot of places where you can’t, I mean, it’s not like you can knock on people’s house door and ask if you can see the inside of their house. But if you, if there’s a public museum or something that you can go into, sometimes they are decorated really well, a period kind of decoration decor that, and of course nowadays people don’t live like that, but it’s still really interesting to see.

And most of these little museums, they don’t take very long and they don’t cost very much. So why not? Pop in, see, you might find something extraordinary.

[00:17:51] Gina: It was fun.

Tapestry Museum in Bayeux

[00:17:51] Annie: Yeah. You went to the Tapestry Museum in Bayeux?

[00:17:55] Gina: Yes, and I had low expectations of that too. You know, I don’t know tapestries, but and I’ve been on your podcast Facebook group for a very long time. So, I knew to go there and I knew people talked about it. But again, I didn’t really know what to expect. It was great. And I love how the museum does it with the audio, explaining each frame as you go along. It was very impressive.

We really, really liked that. My husband’s really into history, and so he sort of filled in some of the gaps that I, that I missed, and it became like an ongoing story, like the Normans and the British and whatever, you know, the whole history there.

Kind of like throughout our whole trip, you know, kind of carried through the whole trip.

And so, yeah, I would highly recommend anyone who visits Bayeux to see that. I got a lot out of it. It was great.

[00:18:43] Annie: Yes, and if you go with children, I think it’s the BBC that has a really good series, or, not just for children, for anybody, but they have a series that explains the Bayeux tapestry to children, especially. And so they explain a little bit of the Norman Conquest, which, you know, it was a major step in Britain’s history.

So, a really interesting thing to see with, and it, I mean, it really looks fabulous. I’m not even into tapestry, or needlepoint, or anything like that, but dang, it’s beautiful. Like, I respect the people who made this.

[00:19:20] Gina: It’s so old too and the way it survived all the way it was handled and everything. It’s very impressive. It’s really a work of art, yeah.

Overlord Tours Experience

[00:19:29] Annie: Yeah, and then you also did a half day tour through Overlord tours. They get recommended all the time. What was it like?

[00:19:36] Gina: It was great. So it was a van and we met, we stayed, you know, in Bayeux right in town. We had a good location there. And so it was just like around the corner, 8:30 in the morning was the pickup. And it turned out we were the only people that booked a half day tour that day. So we had a private tour with a driver, which, you know, couldn’t have been better.

And our driver was very, very well informed. He was a real history buff and knew everything. You know, my husband is a big history buff and certainly World War II, and I have a lot of friends who are really into that too. But there’s something to be said for going on a tour. You know, he gives these inside stories that you don’t know from the books.

And just little things that were really interesting and cool. Like, at one point, he took us to the spot where it was like the side of, it looked like maybe a barn or, you know, just like a building, and there was a huge photograph in black and white of what that area looked like during World War II when the US tanks were coming by, and there were like tanks in the picture. And like, he parked the car exactly like where the tank was, and so you could imagine yourself in the scene, and it looked exactly like, you know, how it did back then.

[00:20:47] Annie: Wow.

[00:20:48] Gina: So just those little things and like little inside stories about some of the, you know, the rangers from the US. It really adds a lot.

[00:20:55] Annie: It makes it unforgettable really, when you get a good tour guide that puts everything into context. And context is everything like, you know, you can tell somebody facts all day long, but if they don’t understand the context, it’s not going to mean much to them. Whereas if they get some context, especially some physical context like this, it’s really very cool.

[00:21:20] Gina: And our driver had a real passion for the subject and he was from the area. And so, you know, every time you could tell that every time he told the story, he was telling the story of his homeland. It was an emotional experience to, you know, hear these stories and everything.

You’re standing there on the beach and he’s talking about what happened and, you know, it’s really a lot. It’s beautiful. And then he took us to the American cemetery too, which was very, very beautiful and very moving.

[00:21:48] Annie: That’s wonderful. And a half a day is not very long, you know, sometimes, because they also do day long tours, they do two day tours. For me, that would be overload, you know, like too much of a good thing, but a half a day tour…

[00:22:03] Gina: Yeah, I feel like we saw a lot and I guess the people, the full day tour is very long. It’s 8:30 to 6:30. I struggled with that. I thought we were going to do the full day tour, but I assumed we would be done at like 4. You know 6:30, I was like, wow, that’s really the entire day, I don’t know if I could do all that WWII. And my husband was like… I don’t… he saw the list of what we were going to see for the half day and he felt that was enough. And he is a real history buff too.

And he doesn’t feel shortchanged in any way. But I’m sure a full day would have been really great.

[00:22:37] Annie: Yeah.

[00:22:37] Gina: But the half day was enough.

[00:22:38] Annie: Yep. Yep. You have to find what suits you and both are just fine. One of the good things about the good tour companies like this one is that they hire very good guides because they are successful and they can afford to pay. They don’t have to shortchange Johnny come lately guides.

They can have really serious guides who know the history and all that.

The Conciergerie in Paris

[00:23:01] Annie: Then back to Paris, you enjoyed your visit to the Conciergerie, and this is one that most people skip. So should they not skip?

[00:23:09] Gina: I don’t think they should skip it. I liked it.

And they have like tablets. I kind of found that a little annoying. At first I thought it was great, and then I was like, Oh, I want to carry this around all the time. Butyou can point it at these kiosks and then hold it up and it’ll show you what the Conciergerie looked like back in the day.

So that was kind of cool, but like I said, it got a little bit, like, okay, that’s fine.

[00:23:33] Annie: Yeah.

After a while, you’re done with that one.

[00:23:35] Gina: My husband loves the history, and when you’re with somebody that really likes whatever it is that they like right, it rubs off on you. So then I started getting like really into it and everything it was fun.

Yeah, we had a good time going through that. That was really nice.

And you know, I’m a real planner and if I showed you my itinerary, you would be like… I’m, you know! We had this wine lunch planned and so we stayed in the Latin Quarter, so I had planned it perfectly that we were going to pass the Conciergerie on our way to the wine tour.

[00:24:06] Annie: So it was very efficient going through everything. So it was definitely worth stopping cause we had to walk through anyway. Sure. Yeah.

Exploring the Marie Antoinette Museum

[00:24:13] Annie: And it takes about, I guess if you’re a history buff and you really want to read everything, look at everything, they have some videos and things like that, that you can watch. It would take a couple of hours, but you can really get a good feel for it in about an hour, I think. And there’s a nice area dedicated to Marie Antoinette as well, that people love. And so, yeah, I think it’s a very worthwhile museum to go into.

[00:24:41] Gina: Yes. I think it definitely… it definitely was. (Mid-roll ad spot)

A Visit to the Rodin Museum

[00:24:45] Annie: You went to the Rodin Museum, which is also a favorite for a lot of people. Can you tell us about that?

[00:24:52] Gina: It’s beautiful. The grounds are beautiful. His sculptures are really moving and interesting. What was it? The gates of hell. That is very impressive to look at and then all like them, you know, when they take it all apart. Oh, you know what I loved? The statue of the men that were…

[00:25:10] Annie: The burglers of Calais.

[00:25:12] Gina: Yes, yes. And then afterwards, I was so moved by that. I had read about them and the whole history of what happened there and it was, you know, kind of a political time when I was there. It was October, before our own elections and it was just sort of like kind of moving to see them and that history, and really loved that.

Yeah, and that’s really a lovely museum to walk through like everybody says I’m not the first person to say it but it’s so manageable and… we walked there right from seeing Napoleon’s tomb which I also recommend and that was nice. So it was great little area.

[00:25:47] Annie: Yeah. So, the Les Invalides, Napoleon’s tomb is not very far from the Rodin Museum. So it’s good to, you know, do those together. And you know, if you are from a large city like you are from New York City, Rodin was a very prolific sculptor. He made castings and his works were reproduced, they were made not just once, but many times.

And so it’s possible that you are from a city that already has a version of the Gates of Hell or the Burglers of Calais, and in that case, perhaps you don’t want to prioritize the Rodin Museum, but seeing it in person is really quite a different experience than looking at photos. And for my patrons, I did a whole long, it was several years ago, but I did a whole thing about the Burglers of Calais and the history.

If you’re a new patron you have to look through the older stuff, there’s some oldies but goodies down there.

Discovering the Pantheon and Carnavalet Museum

[00:26:44] Annie: At any rate, you also went to the Pantheon and the Carnavalet Museum.

[00:26:50] Gina:

[00:26:50] Annie: So tell us about those.

[00:26:52] Gina: The Pantheon, we went down into the crypts and that was, you know, I think it was like Voltaire, he’s buried there or was that in?

[00:26:59] Annie: No, he’s there. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And who else?

Oh, Rousseau? Yeah. Recent ones.

[00:27:07] Gina: Right. I mean, but like some philosophers.

[00:27:10] Annie: Oh, philosophers.

[00:27:11] Gina: They were buried right near each other. So that was, kind of reminded me of like England where you have Mary, Queen of Scots and Queen Elizabeth buried next to each other.

It was sort of like that in the crypts of the Pantheon. So I enjoyed that and yeah, there was Marie Curie and that was kind of interesting to walk through and see all the people there.

[00:27:29] Annie: Louis Braille is one that I admire greatly, that is also in the Pantheon.

[00:27:34] Gina: And I loved the Pantheon at night. We stayed in the Latin Quarter, so we had passed it a few times at night. At night, all of these young people sit out on the steps and there’s some tables on the side or like… even like traffic things, whatever. And they sit on them and everyone’s just like hanging around and it was really nice.

It was lit up at night, so beautiful.

[00:27:53] Annie: So it’s a university area, and it’s also where the library Saint Geneviève is, and that’s a very popular library. It probably closes at seven. But it’s an area where young people meet, because it’s, I mean, you can’t miss it. If you tell your friends, let’s meet at Pantheon, you know, that’s probably why he was waiting for the taxi there, because there’s many people coming through.

[00:28:17] Gina: Yeah, and it’s all lit up. It’s all white. It’s beautiful. It’s all lit up at night and they have the beautiful French flag lit up flying, and we had great weather. So it was just beautiful to walk through.

Mont Saint Michel vs. Saint-Malo

[00:28:28] Annie: I’m interested in the fact that you put Saint-Malo much higher, you ranked it much higher than the Mont Saint Michel, which is what comes next. Can you tell us your impressions of both and why you liked one over the other better?

[00:28:42] Gina: Mont Saint Michel was more crowded,it was like exercise,I mean, it was like a mile and a half walk just to get there, which was, you know, like, what is it called? Like, it was like our journey.

[00:28:53] Annie: It’s a hike up there, yes.

[00:28:54] Gina: There’s buses that’ll take you, and we’re walkers, so it was fine, but, you know, so we walked all the way there. There are buses that will take you?

Yeah. Like, from the parking lot, you can wait in line for a bus and it’ll take you.

[00:29:05] Annie: Right, but that’s just the bus that takes you to the bottom of the hill.

[00:29:08] Gina: Right, right, right.

[00:29:09] Annie: Then you have to hoof it up.

[00:29:10] Gina: It’s like a mile at least to Mont St. Michel. We didn’t take the bus. So we were like already, you know, exercised before we got there. And then you have to walk all the way up, which, you know, it was fun, it was an adventure and everything.

But, you know, I feel like it was a little bit, I don’t want to say that it was touristy.

[00:29:28] Annie: But it is.

[00:29:29] Gina: But it’s not that, because Saint-Malo is touristy too, you know, but it’s just like a different kind of touristy, like it’s not, for me it wasn’t the kind of place that I would spend that much time, like we walked all the way to the top, you know, went into the crypts and stuff there, took a bunch of pictures.

We had some lunch on the way back down, my husband bought a gargoyle thing, you know, and then we left.

[00:29:51] Annie: Yeah.

[00:29:52] Gina: There wasn’t, you know, it wasn’t the kind of place I was going to like luxury because everything is like at a 45 degree angle, so… it’s not like You can just walk around and like hang out, you know, like you just slide down.

[00:30:05] Annie: Did you stay the night, or what did you do?

[00:30:08] Gina: No, no, we just drove. So we left Bayeux early and we drove to Mont Saint Michel in the morning. We got there like by 9, I guess we walked over and got in around 10, and then just we left by like 2 or 3 and then drove to Saint-Malo because it’s only 50 minutes to Saint-Malo from there.

[00:30:28] Annie: Yeah, it’s not very far, yeah.

[00:30:30] Gina: No, it was like the perfect stop in between Bayeux and Saint-Malo. If you were doing my trip, I wouldn’t miss it because it’s right on the way. You should definitely stop there. I wouldn’t…

Shopping and Exploring Saint-Malo

[00:30:41] Gina: Yeah, and so at Saint-Malo, I guess you could drive in town, but we didn’t feel comfortable with that, so we parked in the public parking right outside of the ramparts.

Our hotel was close, you know, from where we parked. So we had our suitcases, and we kind of walked through, like, you know how there’s like that little gate you get through, like where the harbor is, there’s the ramparts and it’s like a gate, right?

Like, I don’t know what else you would call it. You walk through and as soon as we walked through and we were in like the old section, I just felt like dropping my bags and being like, Oh my gosh, this is amazing. Look at this. There are cobblestone streets are like, cobblestones are huge, you know, really hard.

Don’t wear high heels. That’s for sure. And it just was so charming and everybody was outside and it was like a fairy land. I loved it.

[00:31:34] Annie: That’s fantastic. That’s great.

[00:31:35] Gina: There was really good shopping in, if you’re interested in shopping, which I am, but for the ladies, whatever, there’s really good shopping in Saint-Malo, too. It’s not Rouen, but like Bayeux, I would say… is not like your shopping destination.

[00:31:52] Annie: No… even I can tell.

[00:31:53] Gina: Yeah, they have, like, cute things in Bayeux, like take home souvenirs and stuff like that, but not, like if you wanted to go fashion shopping or anything like that.

But, like, if you ask me, Saint-Malo has it all.

[00:32:05] Annie: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, Saint-Malo, Saint-Malo is a place with plenty of money. It’s old money. It’s people who, I have a dear friend who’s from there, her mother lived there and she grew up there and definitely old money in that area.

[00:32:21] Gina: It felt really upscale. And so did Rouen. It felt very upscale. Like, if you’re from New York, you know, think of Saint-Malo like you think of the Hamptons. It’s upscale.

[00:32:31] Annie: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s that sort of thing. That’s great that you love shopping because I don’t pay attention to shopping, but I could have told you that Bayeux was not a place to go shopping because it’s like older stores. It’s not, yeah, they probably have a nice kind of mall outside of the city, but their city center is not geared towards people who like boutiques and things like that.

[00:32:54] Gina: Yeah, no, it’s just touristy things that they had. I mean, I liked it and everything, I just…

[00:33:00] Annie: Yeah. Yeah. You enjoyed visiting some open air markets. Did you plan that or did you just happen upon them?

[00:33:07] Gina: I happened upon it in, I guess it was probably Bayeux. Yeah. In Bayeux, I happened upon it. It was still going on when we got home from the Overlord tour. So we were ready for lunch. So we walked through and I ended up buying, I shouldn’t say this because will I get in trouble with the TSA, but I bought dried smoked sausage to bring home.

You know, we’re Italians who always want to try that, and the lady didn’t speak any English,so I didn’t even know what I was buying, and I was like, you know, we eat everything. Give me one of each. We’ll just try it. And they were, they were delicious. I brought them to my parents house and I shared with my sister and my mom and dad.

[00:33:49] Annie: And they didn’t confiscate them at the border?

Um… you know, they didn’t ask. I didn’t tell.

I had it in my suitcase.

Uh huh. Uh huh. Yeah, that’s all right.

[00:33:59] Gina: I was ready to lose it if I needed to.

[00:34:01] Annie: Sure, sure.

Yeah, good for you. Very good.

Wine and Cheese Tasting in Paris, Ô Chateau

[00:34:05] Annie: You did a wine and cheese tasting lunch in Paris. You mentioned it earlier. Do you remember the name of the company?

[00:34:10] Gina: Yeah, I have it here. Let me see. Ô Chateau.

[00:34:14] Annie: Ô Chateau. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. I’ve been there several times. It’s excellent. I’ll put a link in the show notes. An excellent place.

[00:34:22] Gina: Yeah, it was fun. It was a good experience. We met some nice people, which was kind of fun. Our leader, whatever, the teacher was a lot of fun. That was nice. We were soaking wet. That was the day of the teeming rain. So it was nice to just be someplace warm and nice drinking some wine. Yeah. So that was really good.

I would say that, you know, definitely have something to eat before you go because it, it wasn’t like generous with the wine issues. We even ordered the charcuterie to go with, you know, it’s like two and a half hours with a little cheese and bread and so if you’re expecting to be full after this, you’re not going to be.

[00:35:00] Annie: Yes.

[00:35:00] Gina: You know, maybe just have brunch that morning.

[00:35:04] Annie: Yeah, yeah, the servings of wine are generous, so you might get drunk a little bit.

Unless you drink a lot, all the time, then you, it’s going to be a lot. But I mean, it’s pleasant, and you’re just walking, so…

[00:35:17] Gina: Oh, it’s, I would recommend it, just don’t go on an empty stomach.

[00:35:20] Annie: Right, right. And if you type in your browser: joinusinfrance.com/wine1 the number one, it’ll take you right to Ô Chateau because I use that link all the time, I’ve gone many times, so I made myself a link.

[00:35:35] Gina: And I think it’s a wine bar. I think you could just go there, you don’t have to take the class, you could just go and sample wine there. There is a very pretty bar there.

[00:35:43] Annie: Yeah. Upstairs is a nice wine bar as well, but I mean, anywhere in Paris, you can go up to a bar and order a glass of wine.

You don’t need to go to a wine bar to enjoy some wine in Paris. You can just go to any cafe or bar and ask for a bottle of wine, or a glass of wine, or whatever.

Wonderful.

Unique experiences in Paris

[00:36:01] Annie: You enjoyed the Luxembourg Garden and a boat trip down the Seine and the catacombs. We don’t have that much time. So which one did you want to talk about?

[00:36:09] Gina: You know, they’re all, I feel like those go without saying, right? They’re nothing really unique. One thing, if you wanted to talk about something unique that I did with my girlfriends, we did a Make Your Own Perfume class at Candora. And that was really fun. We learned a lot about the history of perfume and how it even started, and how, you know, Paris became the epicenter of perfume.

And then we got to make our own perfume, which was a lot of fun. It was really a good time. So if you’re, and there were men in taking this class too, so, you know, good for all ages, but people are always looking for things to do with their teenagers or whatever. This is fun.

[00:36:48] Annie: Good.

[00:36:48] Gina: I would definitely recommend it.

[00:36:50] Annie: Yeah, that sounds excellent. What else did you do that was exciting with your girlfriends? Besides shopping, I’m sure you did plenty of shopping.

[00:36:58] Gina: We did. We did do shopping andwe took a wine tour, and we did it through a company called Wine Tours Paris. We took it to Burgundy, which was, this was really great, because our guide whose name was Louis, he picked us up in Paris with a van and we left really early, like 7:30 in the morning.

And I think we were drinking wine by 10:30. I like, it wasn’t that far, like kind of slept in the van. And then he took us to three different wine chateaus, and he was very knowledgeable and that came with a lunch, lunch was included with that, and the lunch was generous. It was cheese and charcuterie and everything, but very generous.

And that was lovely. We learned so much. We had such a good time. He is a phenomenal host.Knows so much about wine and then he drove us back to Paris, we were back to Paris by like 7:30.

So it was a great guide.

[00:37:52] Annie: So you’re going to have to send me the link to his service because I don’t think you included it in what you sent me already. So do send me that and I’ll link it in the show notes, so people who want to do that, because that, that’s a great day trip from Paris I mean, it’s an early morning, but if you’re with friends…

[00:38:09] Gina: It’s a great day trip, especially if someone’s like, you know, nervous about having to catch the train. He has one tour like the Champagne region too, but you have to take the train and he picks you up from there, but this one, he drives you right from town, so that was good.

CITI Pharma

[00:38:22] Gina: And another thing I did with my girlfriends that everybody like kind of talked about, we did go to Citi Pharma, for the whole skin care experience.

[00:38:31] Annie: For the Caudalie products, are you Caudalie people, or are you other products?

[00:38:36] Gina: I’m everything people.

[00:38:37] Annie: Okay.

[00:38:39] Gina: I did buy the Caudalie. I bought that this time with my husband, but yeah, so that’s a lot of fun. If you kind of like, you know, cosmetics and skincare and that kind of thing.

I didn’t know what to expect. I always get a little nervous of, you know, looking foolish, whatever, in a foreign country where you don’t speak the language. But everyone’s so friendly and you know, you just walk in and start walking around and then these lovely sales ladies approach you and they’re there to help and you just tell them what you’re interested in or what problems you’re trying to solve, and they’ve got all kinds of suggestions for you.

It’s just a lot of fun.

I would definitely go.

[00:39:13] Annie: So how do people find this?

[00:39:15] Gina: How do they find it? It is in St. Germain.

[00:39:18] Annie: So you just search for it, right? Citi Pharma in Saint Germain.

It’s CITI, like C I T I, and there’s, I was told that there’s a line to get in, so we got there like really early so you’d avoid the line, but I was there with my husband in October and with my girlfriend in November, and I didn’t experience any trouble with lines.

Yeah, there is one in Toulouse as well, most cities probably have a Citi Pharma, it’s on 26 Rue du Four, and it closes today at 9 pm, but right now is a very busy time to go. It’s big enough that Google tells you how many people are there.

It’s crazy, the things they know, but yeah, go ahead.

[00:40:01] Gina: Well, I just want to say that the prices are cheaper at Citi Pharma. My daughter really wanted that Nax… Nux? Is that how you say it? The lip oil, the honey lip oil.

And so I figured I would, it’s like a thing that teenage girls here like. So I figured, let me, you know, just buy it for her. So I bought it for her at Citi Pharma.

And then I sort of noticed it at other pharmacies and at the airport. And it was significantly cheaper at Citi Pharma than it was elsewhere.

So I do think you get good prices there.

[00:40:29] Annie: It’s a popular place. Lots of ladies on the Join us in France Facebook group mention it. It’s a big one. So that’s great.

All right. Gina, so wonderful to talk to you, really, I think a lot of people are going to want to go on this trip and it’s great that you did.

Travel Tips and Reflections

[00:40:46] Annie: You kept it… like you went to Paris and to Normandy. The end.

You didn’t try to do all of France in two weeks. How long was this trip for you? Was it 10 days or a week?

[00:40:57] Gina: I think it was like 11 days.

[00:41:00] Annie: And it’s reasonable, you have time to sleep in, you have time to enjoy your vacation, some of the days anyway, you know, which is really important. Especially, you know, it was your anniversary trip. You got to take it easy a little bit.

We did. We wanted to have a nice time and not push ourselves to do too much. Although I think we did a lot, but we still had lots of time to sit in the Contrescarpe and have a coffee. You sure did, but there’s people, who in 11 days, they will try to see all of France and…

[00:41:28] Gina: No, that’s just not possible. And you know, I developed, I don’t know if it’s your Facebook group and your podcast or what, but I’ve developed quite a little love of France. So, I’m pretty sure my husband and I will be coming back and see a little bit more of France.

That’s good.

Yeah, because there’s plenty of Italians who love France and French people who love Italy. You know, they’re both great countries. They’re very different, but very great, both of them.

They are very different, but like you said, very great, each in their own way. You know, you can’t compare Paris and Rome, like it’s two different things. Two different things.

[00:42:00] Annie: The Italians beat the crap out of us when it comes to art and how they do their churches. Oh my goodness. Those churches in Rome, ah, out of this world. In France, they’re good, but in Rome, it’s incredible.

[00:42:13] Gina: Yeah, I feel like Paris is more urban. It’s more modern. There’s a lot to see, whereas like Rome is like antiquity and romantic. It’s two different things.

[00:42:25] Annie: Yeah, two different things.

[00:42:27] Gina: Yeah, I can’t compare.

One thing I just want to say, though, is we did have the car, and we drove it to Saint-Malo. When we got to Saint-Malo, we got rid of the car and we took the high speed train back to Paris.

That was so smart. Instead of driving all the way back, four and a half hours, and then having to deal with getting rid of the car when we got to Paris, we just got rid of it in Saint-Malo. And then we took the train, which was I think 25 Euro for the first class seat

and we were there in two and a half hours.

So I would definitely recommend that if you’re going back to Paris, just lose the car and travel by train. It’s so easy. I bought my train tickets in advance. Everything just was really, really seamless.

[00:43:07] Annie: Fantastic. Yes. And definitely, if you don’t need to drive the car back all the way to Paris, just arrange to drop it off. It’ll cost you a little bit more probably to do a pickup somewhere and a drop off somewhere else, but probably not that much and saves you a lot of time. And I mean, taking the high speed train is fun in of itself.

Like it’s a fun experience, I think.

[00:43:27] Gina: It was, and it was easy, so it’s not something to stress about.

[00:43:31] Annie: Thank you so much, and I wish you many more wonderful trips to France, Gina.

[00:43:36] Gina: Thank you.

[00:43:36] Annie: Merci. Au revoir.

[00:43:38] Gina: Au revoir.

Thank you, Patrons!

[00:43:45] Annie: Again, I want to thank my patrons for giving back and supporting the show. Patrons get several exclusive rewards for doing so. You can see them at patreon.com/joinus.

I don’t have any new Join Us in France champions to thank this week because I’m recording this early, but let me thank the 10 patrons who’ve contributed the most over the years, and some of them have been patrons since 2017:

Ann Berzin, Paul Trainer Ray Pierantoni, Shannon Kitchen, Delores McNair, Nancy Colyar, Tracy Gillespie, Erica Luhr, Shelley Rohrer, and Michelle Olander, who is also a podcaster and produces the Plant Based Podcast. Thank you so much, you can’t imagine how much your support means to me. Would you join them too?

You can do it for as little as three bucks a month and it will add up. But if you can afford it, I would love to have you pledge more so you can have more access to more rewards. And one of the big perks of being a patron is that if you have any questions about an upcoming trip, you can message me from within Patreon and I will see it and I will respond.

And also to support Elyse, go to patreon.com/ElysArt.

If you’re planning a trip to France, you need personalized advice, hire me as your itinerary consultant, of course, choose the Bonjour service or the VIP service, and when you’re ready to start, go to joinusinfrance.com/boutique and follow the instructions, it’s pretty simple.

And if you don’t need a one on one consultation, you can still make your trip to Paris better by taking me along with you using my self-guided GPS tours on the VoiceMap app. These tours lead you through the very best of Paris, I update them as soon as necessary and I’ll be heading back to Paris to write one more, maybe I’ll do two more, we’ll see, if I’m feeling really, really motivated, because it’s a lot of work.

Montmartre Tour Review

[00:45:59] Annie: Somebody left this review of my Montmartre tour today: ‘ This tour was excellent. Everything worked flawlessly with directions, very informative, it was like having your own personal guide walking with you.‘

That’s what I aim for. I aim for very good, precise direction. So you’re not lost. And also, I know my listeners, okay? I’ve been talking to you for 11 years now. So I know what the people who listen to this podcast want to hear about. And I make sure to include those things in the tours, because most people would write a tour with just tidbits that get shared constantly and they’re not that interesting, really. So I think I know my country, and I know my listeners and I think I strive for very good tours.

Population Shifts in France

[00:46:49] Annie: All right, let’s talk about something strange happening in France with population shifts. Toulouse is on track to become the third largest city in France, possibly overtaking Lyon. This is big news. And as someone born and raised in Toulouse, I find it fascinating how my hometown keeps growing. And when I was growing up, we were neck and neck with Bordeaux as population size was concerned. Bordeaux was left in the dust a long time ago. I’ll tell you in a moment.

As of 2022, Toulouse had about 511,000 residents, while Lyon was just ahead with 520,000. But here’s the key, Toulouse is growing much faster. Over the last few years, it has gained more residents than Lyon, thanks to strong job opportunities, especially in the aerospace industry and an overall great quality of life in Toulouse.

The Greater Toulouse metropolitan area is now home to 1.8 million people. And it is the fastest growing urban area in France with over 500,000 residents. Meanwhile, Lyon’s metro area has 1.43 million. And if this trend continues, it won’t be long before Toulouse officially takes that number three spot.

Living near Toulouse today, I see the changes firsthand. More housing, more infrastructure projects, more people choosing to settle here. And honestly, I get it. Toulouse has so much to offer.

And here’s another reason to visit. Lonely Planet just named Toulouse the number one city to visit in 2025.

They highlight its vibrant culture, historic charm, and booming culinary scene. With major events planned for the next year, it’s clear Toulouse is having a moment.

Bootcamp 2025

[00:48:43] Annie: And by the way, I have four seats left for the Bootcamp 2025, where you’ll spend 10 days in Toulouse with me. So that’s starting on May 10th, the morning of May 10th, and ending the evening of May 19th.

It’s not too late for you to join us in France for real. What do you think? Could Toulouse really surpass Lyon? Let me know and stay tuned for more updates on life in France.

The Largest Cities in France by Population Numbers

[00:49:07] Annie: But since I’m on this topic, let me also share the population numbers for the largest cities in France.

Now, I’m not including the whole metropolitan area here, just the cities proper, and those numbers are for 2022.

Number one was Paris with 2.2 million.

Marseille with 900,000.

Three is Lyon with 520,000.

Four is Toulouse with 511,000.

Five is Nice with 353,000.

Six is Nantes with 325,000.

Seventh is Montpellierwith 307,000.

Number eight is Strasbourg with 291,000.

Bordeaux left in the dust at number nine with 265,000.

And number 10, Lille with 238,000.

Now, of course, France is a mostly rural country as you can see, I mean, the biggest city, Paris has 2.2 million. And then way after that is Marseille with 900,000. We don’t have a super big metropolis kind of places.

And we have thousands, and thousands, and thousands of villages. But it’s good to see a thriving city, and it’s good to live in one. Although I don’t live in Toulouse, technically, from my house to the Toulouse Metro it’s about 20 minutes by car. And I kind of like it that way, I like, I’m a country girl, what can I tell you?

My thanks to podcast editors Anne and Christian Cotovan who produced the transcripts.

Next week on the podcast

[00:50:43] Annie: Next week on the podcast, an episode with Elyse about the lovely city of Béziers and why that city is full of history and is making big strides today. It’s one of the ones that are growing.

Thank you so much for listening and I hope you join me next time so we can look around France together.

Au revoir!

Copyright

[00:51:04] Annie: The Join Us in France travel podcast is written, hosted, and produced by Annie Sargent, and Copyright 2025 by AddictedToFrance. It is released under a Creative Commons attribution, non-commercial, no derivatives license.

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Transcript for Episode 535: Exploring France's Hidden Gems: An Anniversary Adventure