Table of Contents for this Episode
Categories: Learn French, Loire Valley
Discussed in this Episode
- Tours
- L'Ecole Clé
- Loire Valley
- Vouvray
- La Scaletta
- Villandry
- Chenonceau
- Amboise
- Clos Lucé
- Loches
- Azay-le-Rideau
- Chinon (Fortress of Chinon)
- Château de Blois
- Angers
- Tapestry of the Apocalypse
- Rochecorbon
- Fontevraud
- Dagobert
- Le Chien Fou
- Les Gens Heureux
- Moom Thai
- Rue Colbert
- Biocoop
- Les Halles
- Place Plumereau
[00:00:00]
Welcome to Episode 615
Annie: This is Join Us in France, episode 615, six cent quinze.
Bonjour, I’m Annie Sargent, and Join Us in France is the podcast where we take a conversational journey through the beauty, culture, and flavors of France.
Today on the podcast: Loire Valley Chateaux (Plus a Month of French Lessons in Tours)
Annie: Today, I bring you a conversation with Rowena Sjovall, a Bootcamp alumna who spent four immersive weeks at a language school in Tours, then explored the Loire Valley on her own.
She placed into a B2 class, rented her own apartment, shopped the markets, and found the medieval villages and chateaus most visitors never see.
Methinks that [00:01:00] might be a dream trip for many of you, but you’ll have to let me know.
Support and Show News
Annie: Before we start, this show runs on listener support. If you want to work with me directly, I do itinerary consults, VoiceMap tours of Paris, and day trips around the southwest of France.
Everything is at joinusinfrance.com/boutique. And if you shop on Amazon anyway, starting at joinusinfrance.com/amazon costs you nothing but helps the show.
Magazine segment
Annie: For the Magazine part of the podcast, after my chat with Rowena, I’ll discuss why women who work at the Eiffel Tower walked off the job last week, and also the newly announced direct flight between Dulles and Toulouse.
It’s going to be easier for you to come see me, how nice.
[00:02:00]
Meet Rowena in Tours
Annie: Bonjour, Rowena Sjovall, and welcome to Join Us in France.
Rowena: Bonjour, Annie. Always a pleasure.
Annie: Nice to see you again. You were a bootcamper, and here you are on my screen. I wish I could give you a hug, but I cannot.
Rowena: Aw. Virtual.
Annie: Virtual. Virtual, that’s it. Today, we are going to talk about your adventures learning French and visiting the Loire Valley. And so tell us the program you signed up for, when you were there, that sort of thing.
Rowena: Yeah, so I signed up for a four-week course at a language school in Tours called L’Ecole Clé. Actually, I was in Tours in 2023, and I have seen that school. I was just there visiting for four days, so I had put it on my list [00:03:00] that, you know, someday I’ll, when I want to go to school I’ll go there.
So when I contacted them, they happened to have an opening for me, and they can accommodate me for four weeks, and voila, I went there.
Annie: Fantastic.
Placement and Class Intensity
Annie: So what level did you start at?
Rowena: So there is an assessment before the course. Part of it is, you do it on a computer, it assess your writing, your reading, and your listening comprehension, and then also in addition to that 30 minutes of talking live like this. We just went on Zoom, so that was part of their assessment.
I was surprised, you know, the instructor, the director told me I was a B1 level, but they did put me in B2.
Annie: Oh.
Rowena: Which, you know, I guess in a way it’s good because maybe I was at that level that, you know, I’m not quite there, but almost. So, you know, it was really… it was really challenging because everything was in [00:04:00] French.
There was no English translation, you know? If you want to look up a meaning of something, you have to look up a French dictionary.
Annie: Right. Right. Well, that’s how you learn. It’s pretty intense, right? Were you doing three hours of class every day?
Rowena: No, more than that. So the classes were Monday through Friday, started at 9:00 in the morning, and lasted until about 12:45.
Annie: Ah.
Rowena: Except Monday. Monday only lasted about 12:15. And then in addition to the morning classes, on Tuesday we also have a class for about two hours on Tuesday, and then on Thursday it was more of a cultural activity where we get to sign up for an activity, and that was also two hours. So I think it was, like, 20 hours a week in total.
Annie: That’s a lot. That’s… that’s intense.
Homework and Adult Learning
Rowena: It is, and then, you know, there’s homework and all [00:05:00] that stuff. There isn’t even a respite from it because on the weekends you have homework to do because you got to take care of it on Monday, right?
Annie: Well, yes.
Rowena: You know, it wasn’t that hard, but you know, when you’re out and about you’re thinking, "Oh, I still got to do homework," you know, on a Sunday night. It’s really like being back in school, you know?
Annie: Right. Right. So we should say to people who are not looking at you that you’re not a college student anymore, but you’re not retired either.
Rowena: I’m kind of retired. I just, well, in my late 50s.
Annie: Okay.
Rowena: I haven’t worked further since before COVID, but I really haven’t gotten back to work.
Annie: Okay. Okay, you have time, you can take the time to come to…
Rowena: I have time, yeah.
Annie: And you spent a whole month.
Rowena: I spent a whole month, yeah, in Tours, yeah.
Annie: So it was in, was March through April, or April through May?
Rowena: I arrived Tours on April 25th, and then I left [00:06:00] April 23rd. I mean, May 23rd.
Annie: May 23rd, wow.
Rowena: A full month, yeah.
Annie: Wow.
Rowena: Yeah.
Annie: You were brave!
Rowena: Thank you. And, you know, I really enjoyed the class because, you know, my other school experience was in Toulouse during the boot camp, and that class was, there was, I think, almost 12 of us. This one, the class was kept small to, I think, eight people the most.
Annie: Mm-hmm.
Rowena: So, you know, it was lots of interaction in class.
Annie: Did they emphasize speaking, or was it equally written and… were you preparing for a test?
Rowena: I was not preparing for a test, but there were some people in my class and also in the other classes that were preparing for the DELF. And then also there were some people in the other classes that were there as part of their employment, I think, contract of some sort. There were two people in there that was, [00:07:00] registered for, I don’t know, like, 20 weeks or something like that.
Annie: Oh, wow!
Rowena: I found out they’re doctors. But I think part of that also is they have to pass the DELF, B1 or B2, something like that. But for me, at that point, yeah, I was just there to help improve my French.
Annie: That’s wonderful.
Rowena: The emphasis obviously was, you know, for the class. It was really all, you know, very well-rounded because there was a lot of listening. There was a lot of speaking opportunities, discussions of things you listened to, things you read.
Obviously, the homework was a lot of writing. We wrote paragraphs and things like that. So, just touching on all those points of learning, you know, taking in learning and then, you know, the output of that learning.
Speaking French in France
Annie: Yeah, I would say that having met you, I think you’re pretty outgoing personality-wise.
Like, you’re not a shy person, but was it [00:08:00] emotionally difficult to be by yourself for a month and do… Was it challenging to you to be doing all this work for a month, or you were just so happy to be there that it just happened, it was fine?
Rowena: It was a mixed bag, you know. It’s challenging to be there because, you know, you get into this class and, you know, like half of the class you’re like, "Oh my goodness." I’m like, "They’re speaking so well," you know?
And then, you know, the others were all in the same level, but everybody was helping out each other. For me, it was also, you know, I was looking forward to it because any opportunity to be in France and to practice my French even though, you know, I mangled the language and, you know, but I’ll just go for it. I was like, "Correct me," you know? Because that’s the only way I’m going to learn. And people are, you know, people are always very kind and they’re very, you know, appreciative that obviously you’re trying to speak their language no matter how bad it is.
But, you know, they appreciate it. In Tours and in other places I’ve been in in France, aside from [00:09:00] Paris, you know, most people, it’s not English that, you know, they’ll revert to. They’ll just keep on talking to you in French.
Annie: Right, right, right. I have found that, not so long ago, I was in line for a museum in Brest and there was a Cléarly new employee, a lady who was not comfortable doing what she was doing, but … And there were other people supervising her and telling her what to do, et cetera. There was a very nice couple in front of me, Italian couple, and I heard them speaking Italian together. That’s why I knew they were Italian. And she came up to them and was asking them some questions about the visit of the museum, and they, the gentleman spoke very good French. And I thought, "Wow, he’s actually speaking very good French to her." And this woman answered in really bad English, and I wanted to tell her, "Stop, stop. His French is good. Your English sucks. Don’t try to speak English right now." But I think there are French [00:10:00] people who just, they want to practice their English, you know? It’s not that your French is bad, it’s just that they see this as an opportunity to practice their English. And if you want to speak French with them, just tell them, "No, I want to do this in French." Did you have to do that sometimes?
Rowena: Yes, I do, like especially at restaurants, when they can tell and I say, you know, « S’il vous plait, puis-je… puis-je pratiquer mon français avec vous? »
Annie: Yes, yes.
Rowena: And they’re also like, "Sure, sure, sure. Oui, bien sûr."
Annie: Yeah, yeah. I think you have to say something. Be proactive. Just tell them, you know, "I’d rather do this in French."
Why Tours Feels French
Rowena: And do you know, what I found about Tours is, you know, at first I was like, "Oh, it’s a university town."
I remember when I was in Montpellier, it was a university town. Like, I heard a lot of English. But in Tours, you know, even though it was a university town, I didn’t hear that much English.
So there were a couple of big tour buses that were there, lots of tourists that I can hear. They were touring the cathedral. But [00:11:00] I think a lot of it, too, as being a what they call a university town is there was a conservatory of music there. There’s a patisserie school there as well.
Annie: Mm.
Rowena: So it wasn’t really like the traditional university that you would find in places like Montpellier, you know, where there’s a lot of English speakers that go to school there. I didn’t really hear that much English other than, you know, those instances.
Annie: Very nice.
Rowena: And of course, you know, my classmates.
Annie: Of course.
Finding an Apartment
Annie: So how did you organize your stay? Did you find a… like an apartment? Did the school arrange your stay for you?
Rowena: The school had options for stay, but I chose to rent my own apartment. But the school gave me a listing of various apartments, studios that you know, have rented out to other students before. There was also an option for a, [00:12:00] like a home stay.
Annie: Mm.
Rowena: But I wanted my own space. I don’t know if I could handle, like, just being around, you know, for four weeks, you know what I’m saying? It’s the same people around, having that schedule.
If it was just a week, I could do it, but four weeks, you know, I wanted my own thing, and also I wanted to cook my meals. I wanted to experience the French lifestyle and culture of going to the market, buying my ingredients, you know, and all that stuff, having my own space, cooking my own food.
… So, I wanted to do that, so that’s why I got an apartment, although it was on a second floor with no elevator.
Annie: Ah.
Rowena: So, at least twice a day I’m up and down those stairs, sometimes with bags of groceries.
Annie: Yeah, well, you’re strong. You’re strong. You can do it.
Rowena: It was a good training for me, though, for my upcoming walk, for sure.
Annie: That’s right. You also, you do like to do the Camino, [00:13:00] and we had you on the podcast before talking about the Camino. Might have you on again to talk about that next part, but…
Rowena: Yeah, yeah. In fact, I’m leaving on Monday, so…
Annie: Oh, how exciting. That’s wonderful.
Rowena: Yeah, so by the time, you know, I’m probably back from that by the time this podcast is live.
Annie: Yes, probably because it’s not going to come out immediately as always.
Wonderful. So did you use booking.com for your apartment, Airbnb, VRBO?
Rowena: No, I just contacted the landlord directly because the school just gave us the contact information, which worked out.
Annie: Yeah.
Rowena: So, and it was, yeah, it was a very nice apartment.
Annie: No surprises? No bad surprises?
Rowena: No, no surprises except I wasn’t aware that, I thought I didn’t have plates, and you know, because it wasn’t my place, I didn’t want to open all the cabinets. So I ended up buying a plate. There were still two plates there and everything, but then after a week, [00:14:00] Annie, all of a sudden I see one of the cabinets slightly open. I was like, "Oh, how did that open?" I open it up, all the plates were there.
Annie: Yeah, yeah.
Rowena: It was just one of those things because, you know, it was huge. It was one of those huge cabinet with the… It was taller than the door to the kitchen, and it had a key, those skeleton keys, so I didn’t want to touch it.
Annie: Yeah.
Rowena: So I was scared.
Annie: Oh, you’re funny. You’re funny. That’s great. I’m sure some personalities, they would’ve gone in and looked at everything, like, first night they’d be opening everything, looking at everything.
Rowena: I just opened the ones he mentioned to me, like where the TV is and all of that stuff.
Annie: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, that’s funny. That’s funny. All right.
Loire Walks and Vouvray
Annie: So tell us about the excursions you did while on this trip, and your favorite ones. I’m sure you did a lot of things. I particularly want to hear about your favorite ones first.
Rowena: Well, [00:15:00] first of all, because I was there part of May, and the holiday the 1st of May, most of the holidays happened to be on a Friday.
Annie: Right.
Rowena: We did not have school on Friday, however, what the school arrange is for a field trip somewhere if we choose to go, so that is how I got to visit some of the places. But my favorite activity is just my daily stroll along the Loire. They had a nice walking path. The weather also, the two weeks that I was there was very rainy. I had plans of riding a bike, but I didn’t do it. I just walked. But that stroll along the Loire, it’s just so beautiful because you get the, you know, get a view of the river and then the buildings, the cathedral and all of that, and it is a pretty long path.
And these two hours, if you want to walk longer, three hours, and in fact, during those walks, I discovered some other [00:16:00] places along those walks. For example, I discovered that there was a guinguette. Is that how you say it, a guinguette?
Annie: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Rowena: A guinguette, which, you know, because I got there the last weekend of April, it wasn’t open yet. It was opening May 1st, but when I first saw it, it was still closed. I was like, "Oh, this is where it is," and that was about, I don’t know, maybe like a three-kilometer walk from where I was staying, and then further out about 10 kilometers from there is the village of Vouvray.
Annie: Aha.
Rowena: Yeah, and I love Vouvray. It’s one of my favorite wines.
So, I told myself, "You know, when the weather is nice, I’m going to walk there," because, like I said, it has been so rainy. So I did end up walking there. I think it was the last Saturday I was there or something. So I walk there, you walk along the path for a good seven kilometers until you have to surface [00:17:00] up and go into the village. And I timed it to where I could have lunch there and then also visit, there’s a famous cave there that you can tour. So I did that. I had lunch at this wonderful restaurant called La Scaletta, which is an Italian restaurant. You know, just your normal lunch, enjoying the lunch, and said, "Okay, you know, let me see the opening times for the cave." It was closed that day.
Annie: Oh.
Rowena: So I said, "Oh, let me have another glass of wine." But anyhow, I … So I enjoyed my lunch, and I just took the bus back.
Annie: Right. Right.
Getting Around Without a Car
Annie: You were able to use the regional buses, which was…
Rowena: Oh, yeah, yeah.
Annie: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Rowena: The tram. There’s a tram, the regional buses, yeah, and I also used the train. I did not rent a car because, one, I didn’t want to pay for parking.
Annie: Mm-hmm.
Rowena: Yeah, and it’s also going to be hard to find parking, [00:18:00] and the apartment I stayed at didn’t have any parking available, because it was right next to the prefecture, so it was, like, all public parking, and I didn’t see anything. But, you know, I’m pretty comfortable taking public transportation.
So I went to places that I could access via public transportation, with the exception of the Villandry. I had this grand plan that I’m going to bike to Villandry, but again, the weather was not great, but I found a carpool with the other school that were going to Villandry.
Annie: Oh.
Rowena: So I went with the other language school because that school and our school partnered in some of the trips with their … That’s how I found out that there’s a pastry school because there were three Japanese students that were in our trip, and they’re there for pastry school, so they were all learning French, you know, in addition to pastry school.
Annie: Fun. Wow.
Rowena: But yeah, so that’s one … [00:19:00] Oh, I did find out the restaurant I went to in Vouvray, La Scaletta, is going to be featured, I believe the, what’s her name? The actress Eva Longoria.
Annie: Oh, yeah.
Rowena: I saw it on Instagram, she did a little food documentary for Paris, Lyon, and French food like that, but I think she’s doing another one, and it’s featuring Tours because I saw some reels, and one of them was in Place Plumereau, which is the center square in Tours, and then also at that restaurant.
Annie: Wow.
Rowena: So I can say I’ve been there before her.
Annie: That’s right. You discovered it first.
Rowena: I beat you, Eva, right? Yeah, so they … So that was interesting.
(Mid-roll ad spot)
Rowena: But obviously, you know, the Loire Valley is famous, you know, famous for their chateaus, right?
Annie: Yes, yes, yes.
Rowena: I tried to go to some chateaus that, again, I could get to [00:20:00] by public transport. The last time I was in the Loire Valley in 2023, I already went to Chenonceau, to Amboise, and Clos Lucé, so I didn’t want to go back there.
Loches and Medieval History
Rowena: So I visited other chateaus, like,you know, as one of our field trips, we went to the village of Loches.
Annie: Ah.
Rowena: L-O-C-H-E-S.
Annie: Yes.
Rowena: Very beautiful medieval village, very quaint. I love the cobblestones. I loved, like, there’s some parts of it that, you know, you see a little painting of the fleur-de-lis on the path.
Annie: Mm-hmm.
Rowena: And there was just something about that village. It’s like a fairy tale book.
Annie: Wow.
Rowena: Yeah. And so I really like it. And, I did find interesting about the history of a woman named Agnès Sorel.
Annie: Ah, yes.
Rowena: Have you heard of her?
Annie: I have heard of her.
Rowena: Yeah, she was the mistress of I think Charles VII.
Annie: Mm-hmm.
Rowena: Right? She was the [00:21:00] mistress, and there was a copy of a painting in the chateau there of her as the blessed Virgin Mary, breastfeeding with the little baby. The original painting, I believe, is somewhere in Belgium or something, so this was just a copy. But, you know, from what I’ve heard, that painting was so controversial during that time, and it wasn’t because she was as the blessed Virgin Mary or there, that she was breastfeeding. It wasn’t even the semi-nudity that was controversial. It was because they made her look like a queen when she is a mistress.
Annie: Aha.
Rowena: So forget about I can see the boobs, right? But- … you’re wearing a crown. You’re wearing a crown like a queen, so that, you know, that is insulting.
Guinguettes Summer Vibes
Annie: I forgot to mention, when you mentioned the guinguette, I forgot to mention that they’re not open [00:22:00] year-round, right?
They, guinguettes are something that opens in the evening or maybe-
Rowena: During the summer
Annie: … during the summer months.
Rowena: Yes. And some of it just for the weekends, I think.
Annie: Right. So, describe what it was like.
Rowena: It’s very lively. It’s like an outdoor party, you know, not festival, but like a small festival, but it’s more of a festival of just people getting together. And in Tours there were two that were near, that was right near where I was staying, and then there was one that was the, the one that was about the three kilometers away, Rochecorbon, I think is the name of the town, and that one was a big one. That one has all these picnic benches right in the center of it, and they also had picnic benches set up along the river.
They have, you know, pétanque courts set up for maybe three… three groups, four groups. They also have a little, kind of like a covered hall that is for dancing. And in fact, [00:23:00] when we were there, there was some dancing involved. And that was, you know, the other time I saw a big tour bus.
So it wasn’t crowded yet. It was on a Thursday. And then also, oh, they also, that particular one has also a play area for kids.
Annie: Ah, wow.
Rowena: So that one was a bigger one. And then the one closer to the town center, where I was staying at, that was along the river, but it wasn’t as big. They serve beer, wine, a little bit of food, you know, like light snacks.
Annie: Yeah.
Rowena: So, nothing fancy, but it just that fun, you know, atmosphere of being there, music playing, people gathering, talking, dancing.
Annie: Yeah, usually the lighting is fun, it’s just a festive ambiance is what it is.
Rowena: Yeah.
Annie: And French people really like them.
Rowena: Yeah, and like I said, it opened May 1st. All of them opened May 1st, and I believe some of them were only open for the weekend.
Annie: Right.
Rowena: Yeah. And I [00:24:00] believe they have it all over there, because I saw something on Instagram about a Guinguette in Chinon.
Annie: Yes. So they are pretty typical of many, many places. I’ve seen them around Paris, I’ve seen them in coastal towns where there’s a lot of visitors in the summer months. They pop up everywhere, and they come back every year.
Rowena: Yeah, year after year.
Annie: Yeah, yeah. People have their favorites, so that’s fun.
Azay and Chinon Highlights
Annie: You went to Azay-le-Rideau.
Rowena: Yes, I did.
Annie: And how’d you get there?
Rowena: By train getting there, by bus leaving there.
Annie: Okay.
Rowena: And you know, I really like that place. You know, you go to all these chateaus, there’s always a garden, you know, beautiful garden and everything. Sometimes they’re vast area, you know, the chateau’s big. And this one, it was very, I mean, compact compared to other chateaus, obviously. But what I loved about it is it has a [00:25:00] natural walking path in the back. I just happened to walk around, and then I saw this path, and I just followed it. It’s almost like you’re removed from the world when you go back there, because it’s just all these trees. And then, you know, you go back, and then it starts to cirClé around. There was one part where you see the chateau on your left from a distance, and almost like another, I don’t know, chateau or another building from the other side, you know, and you’re smack in the middle, and there’s this big field separating you from the other, what other chateau I was seeing. I felt like I was in, like, a, what was that movie? Pride & Prejudice, towards the end. Where Elizabeth, you know, and Mr. Darcy meets up, you know, in the mist of the fog.
Annie: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mr. Darcy was not there, though.
Rowena: No, no, no. No. I was like, when I was stood there, I was [00:26:00] like, "I swear they could have shot it here." But it just gave that really, you know, really romantic vibe about that place. And, I did do a tour there. They offered free tours that you can sign up for, and it was in French, which is, you know, it’s good. I understand a lot of it, but it helped, you know? It helped. And you just sign up for the tour as soon as you get your ticket.
Annie: Yes. That happens a lot in France. It’s kind of predictable. A lot of places will have a tour around 11:00 AM, and then another one around 2:30, and maybe another one at 4:00. You know, it’s kind of… Because they know when people arrive.
Rowena: Yeah.
Annie: Most places, that’s how they play it. And usually you don’t have to book, you could just show up and say, "Can I join the tour?"
Rowena: Yeah, with the Azay-le-Rideau, they want you to sign up because they only, so that you’re not crowded in one room when you’re going through the tour. Another [00:27:00] place that offered that is Chinon, the Fortress of Chinon. They offered that, but with Chinon you didn’t have to sign up. That is another fascinating place.
Annie: Yeah.
Rowena: As I was reading about it, I found out that it was the favorite royal palace or royal home for Henry II and Eleanor of Aquitaine. It was their favorite place, and Henry II died there.
Annie: Ah.
Rowena: So, but the thing with Chinon is, that a lot of it has been destroyed, you know? So many of the places they’re not complete, you know, like some of the towers.
But you can go up to the tower over there, and then also, you know, lots of history of the place, and you can just see how fortified it is or it was back then at, you know, it’s like, I really can’t see anybody invading it. The walls are so high and steeply built
on a cliff. And then you see the river there. I can’t remember which river that was, but it’s a [00:28:00] nice view of the village.
And then, of course there’s the history of Joan of Arc traveling there and staying there hoping to meet the Dauphin.
Annie: Mm-hmm.
Rowena: You know, and there’s that. And, you know, it has a rich wine-making tradition.
The village in itself is very quaint. Because it is built on that cliff, you have the option of taking an elevator going up. There’s an elevator, you just got to find it, you know? You got to know where to find it because you got to go through a certain, like a small street after the center of the village, and you’ll see the elevator.
Annie: Wow.
Rowena: So, yeah.
Annie: Look for it if you need it.
Rowena: Yes, look for it if you need it. Although, you know, the walk up wasn’t that bad.
Annie: Yeah.
Rowena: So you just take your time. Oh, and while I was at Chinon, I was just walking around the village, you know, I discovered this church. There was a church, and I just peeked [00:29:00] my head in it, and I was like, "Oh, nobody’s here." But you know, and I saw inside that there were kind of like almost like scaffolds inside, so I left.
And then, there was a man in the church that, you know, came out and he said, "Oh, come here, come here," and I was like, "Why?" You know? And he’s like, "Oh." So I walked in there, and then I didn’t realize there were other people that were in there, and he wanted to tell me about the church, that they had discovered some frescoes in the church. They’re in the process, you know, of revealing them… Revealing them.
Annie:
Rowena: Yeah.
Annie: Restoring them.
Rowena: So he told me, "Yes, go up the stairs, look up. Always look up." So I was like, "Oh." So I thought, yeah, I thought that was pretty cool. Yeah.
Annie: All of these places, really, when you visit chateaus like this, if there’s any way you can wing it, join a tour because you learn so much on these tours.
Now, I mean, not every tour guide is created equal, but they always know their stuff. They [00:30:00] might not be as entertaining. Some of them are more entertaining than others, but it’s really good to have a tour, I think, so you can put things into perspective. You know, how does this chateau fit in French history, what happened here sort of thing.
Rowena: Yeah, yeah. And then, you know, and it’s always fascinating when you hear about the histories of these, many of these chateaus, you know, because some of them obviously are not during the medieval ages, you know, the Middle Ages or something, you know…
Annie: It’s later, yeah.
Rowena: Yeah, much later.
Chateau Of Blois
Rowena: And speaking of medieval chateaus, there’s, I also visited Blois.
The Chateau of Blois, and that was very imposing looking at it from the street because, you know, you’re walking the street, then you’re going down a little bit, and then you see this just massive chateau, the way it’s angled because you see the rock that is it built from.
Annie: Mm-hmm.
Rowena: And this huge, you know, and the angle is you’re facing, like the wide side of it as opposed [00:31:00] to the side of it that’s much smaller because it’s just kind of rectangular, so you see the wider face of it. And again, you know, interesting history there.
Annie: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Rowena: Birthplace of Louis XII, I believe, and he made it his royal residence once he became king. Catherine de Medici spent her final days there.
And there’s also an assassination that happened there.
Annie: Ooh!
Rowena: Yeah, the Duke of Guise, I believe, was assassinated there by Henry III.
Annie: Aha. Mm-hmm.
Rowena: And also I believe Joan d’Arc, that is where she was able to use as a military base to gather her troops, that she had used that place for that as well.
So lots of history.
Annie: Cool.
Rowena: Yeah.
Apocalypse Tapestry Visit
Annie: I see that you went to Angers and you visited The Tapestry of the Apocalypse, which I want to mention because it’s such a nice place.
Rowena: Yes, it [00:32:00] is. The city itself is very beautiful, and of course you can’t go there without going to see the tapestry. And it is one of those things, like, you have to stay in that room and linger. You can’t just walk in there, look at it, look at it, and then get out, you know? Because I think it’s very important for the eyes to adjust to that darkness- And to see the beauty of it, because I found that the longer you stayed in that room, it’s the more vivid the colors came out, and the more you see these little things in the tapestry. You know, you’ll see a little puppy in one of them. In another one you see a moth, you know? Or is that a moth or a dragonfly, you know? But these little things are showing up.
Annie: Yeah.
Rowena: It’s nice to just sit… You know, that’s why they have the benches there. Like, literally I found myself just sitting there, and I’m like, "I can spend all day here," because, I [00:33:00] can’t… I think there’s about 90 of them in that room.
Annie: Oh, there’s a lot of tapestries in there, yes.
Rowena: Yeah. It is the largest collection of medieval tapestry, and I think they’re dating back to the 14th century or something like that. The late 1300s, I believe.
Annie: It’s stunning. So Apocalypse is the name of the Book of Revelations, so it’s really the stories of the Book of Revelations.
Rowena: Yeah.
Annie: So for people who are well-versed in their New Testament, although a lot of people who read the New Testament, they usually choke on Revelations because it’s kind of hard to read.
Rowena: Yeah.
Annie: But if you, you know, if you have some knowledge of the Book of Revelations, you will enjoy it even more. There are some signs, they do tell you, you know, this one represents this bit, you know, all the horses and all the famous things that you can see when you’re there.
Rowena: Yeah. It’s beautiful. I [00:34:00] mean, you know, I’ve seen the tapestry at the Cluny Museum and, you know, The Lady and the Unicorn, and I thought, "Wow." And it wasn’t until I got there that I’m like, "Oh, my goodness. Wow," you know?
Annie: It’s another level.
Rowena: Yeah. It’s completely another level, you know?
Annie: Yeah.
Rowena: Because there’s so many of them, and the way… you know, it’s like when you look at it from the angle that, you know, where part of the wall kind of curves-
Annie: Yeah.
Rowena: … You know? It’s so beautiful, because then you just see line, line, line, and then it’s a little softness on the curve, and you see those colors just mixing together. It’s like a wave of colors.
Annie: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Rowena: So. I did notice, there were some… I don’t know if some of the tapestries, they haven’t recovered or, you know, it’s missing, because I think there’s some places where there was nothing. You know? It’s just almost like a gap.
Annie: Yes, and there’s some gaps, and there’s also sometimes there’s some of them are on loan. But there is so many of them to see there that it’s [00:35:00] really, really very interesting. And they make it easy for you. There’s a whole area across from the tapestry where they, you can sit and just watch them for a while. Because I agree with you, you really need to let your eyes get used to this strange way of telling stories. You know? It’s a very different way of telling stories than what we’re used to today, although perhaps if you enjoy cartoons, it would be cartoon-like, but it’s not moving.
Rowena: Yeah, I can see that, because they’re… Like, each band of it is a snippet of a story, you know?
Annie: Yes, yes, yes.
Rowena: So yeah. Or each tapestry.
Annie: I took lots of photos. I might do a little short video based on my photos-
Rowena: Yeah.
Annie: … because I thought that was really extraordinary. It’s one of those things that you know, everybody hears about The Lady and the Unicorn, but not a lot of people know about the Tapestry of the Apocalypse in Angers. And just the fact that, you know, the Apocalypse is [00:36:00] Revelations, it will help some people put things into perspective, I think. Beautiful place. Angers is a lovely place, really.
Rowena: It is a lovely place.
Annie: It’s worth a day or two, and you can do it as a day trip from Paris. As a matter of fact, we had an episode about doing it from, as a day trip from Paris.
Rowena: Mm-hmm.
Annie: If you can, I would spend one night though, because there is a lot to see in Angers.
Rowena: Yeah. That was the thing. I was there as part of our group, because it was one of those Fridays that we did not have to go to school, so we were just there for the day, and wishing now that, you know, I would have just spent the weekend there.
Annie: Mm.
Rowena: You know?
Annie: Yeah.
Rowena: Because there was a lot to see.
Annie: Yeah, yeah.
Rowena: You know? But, you know, gives me a reason to go back.
Annie: That’s right. That’s right. You also… I see you-
Rowena: Any reason to be back in France.
Nantes On May Day
Annie: I see you also went to Nantes.
Rowena: We did. So when we went to Nantes, it was the 1st of May.
Annie: Ah.
Rowena: So a lot of places [00:37:00] were closed. The chateau was closed. We did see the cathedral there. And so the only thing we were able to do in Nantes was we rode, we got on the little boats and just went on the river.
Annie: Mm-hmm.
Rowena: We cruised around the river. We walked around. The school director, she’s very familiar with Nantes. She gave us a little tour of it. And one of the things I found interesting about Nantes is we got to where the water was, a part of the river. There’s a monument there. I think it’s dedicated to the slavery. I think there was some slave trading that passed through there, and that was the abolition of the slave trading, that monument was there.
Annie: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Rowena: So we went to see that one.
Annie: Nice.
There’s more of that sort of stuff in La Rochelle as well, where…
Rowena: Ah!
Annie: You know, yeah.
Rowena: Yeah.
Annie: France was involved in some slave trading, unfortunately.
Rowena: Yeah, unfortunately. I mean, but Nantes kind [00:38:00] of to me look like a mini Paris.
Annie: Oh, okay.
Rowena: Like, I’ve found like, you know, especially you get to, they have this big square where the, I think it’s the Palace of Justice or maybe the Mairie, you know, that big square there. And but if you look around you, you know, the building almost like that Haussmann architecture.
Annie: Ah, okay. I don’t remember, but I’ve been to Nantes. I don’t remember, and I do, I think I know the plaza you’re mentioning. There’s a water fountain and then a big statue in the center.
Rowena: Mm-hmm.
Annie: But that’s, I mean, that’s in a lot of French cities, but I don’t remember what the buildings looked like around.
Rowena: Yeah, just walking around on the streets, you know, like the shops and all of that, where the shops are, I felt like, you know, I’m in Paris, like in, I don’t know, Saint-Germain or something.
Annie: Nantes is a big city. Nantes is a real city, you know? It’s not a village. It’s not a quaint village. It’s a… it’s a big, big, big city.
Rowena: Yes, it is. [00:39:00] Yeah. Yeah, compared to the other cities during this trip, yeah.
Annie: Right, right, right.
(Mid-roll ad spot)
Tours Food Finds
Annie: So you listed a few restaurants that you enjoyed going to.
Rowena: I did.
Annie: Let’s see. Dagobert Le Chien Fou. Those are all in Tours, right?
Rowena: Yes, those are all in Tours, except for La Scaletta, which is in Vouvray.
Annie: In Vouvray, yes. Yeah. Les Gens Heureux, I like the name of the restaurant, Happy People.
Rowena: Yeah, yeah.
Annie: That’s nice. Moom, Moom Thai?
Rowena: Moom Thai. It was a… a Thai place. It was so good. I went there twice.
Annie: Yeah, that’s cool.
Rowena: But I, you know, because of where I live, there’s a lot of nice dining places here. So when I travel to France, I try to look for more like mom-and-pop type of places, you know? Like things like that. These restaurants were great, but I can tell you like one of, [00:40:00] you know, like I told you, I cooked a lot. I went to the market on, because there was a market every Wednesday and Saturday morning. I was about 15-minute walk from the Les Halles. There was a… a Biocoop, I think that’s the name of it, like a-
Annie: Biocoop, yeah.
Rowena: … Like organics, Biocoop. There was this kebab place… that I would go to. There’s a street called Rue Colbert in Tours, and it is lined with these mom-and-pop restaurants. Some are, you can sit down there. Some are just, you know, like places that, you know, most people just order to go, a porte. And then there was this place that I found in one of my evening strolls, like pre-dinner strolls, was a boucherie that was selling those rotisserie chicken.
Annie: Ah.
Rowena: And the rotisserie chicken was only three euros for, like a thigh and a leg.[00:41:00]
Annie: All right.
Rowena: You know, a quarter of a chicken. So I like got some and, oh my God, I like, I loved it.
Next day, I made sure I walked back there and got me two more for two more nights, because it was so good. But it’s just those kind of places, you know?
I don’t know, there was just something, and they were like, they didn’t cost too much.
Annie: No.
Rowena: No.
Annie: No, no. I’m going to be going to visit my in-laws at Christmas time again, but every time I go back to the US, not having lived there for 20 years now, plus longer than that, the sticker shock gets me every time. I’m like, "Whoa, that’s expensive over here."
Rowena: Yeah.
Annie: By comparison, France is cheap. Yeah.
Rowena: Yeah. Not to include the tip, the tipping culture we have here in the US.
Annie: That’s true.
Rowena: You know? You’re paying another 20% on top of what you’re paying for food to eat out.
Annie: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you learned some things about France, and we’ve mentioned them [00:42:00] already. You learned about Agnès Sorel and Anne de Bretagne.
Rowena: Anne de Bretagne. I got to read up on them, because, you know, they seem to have very fascinating stories.
Annie: Yes, yes. I have bought some books about them. I have not read them yet. If they were audiobooks, I would have listened already, but you seem to just enjoy France in general. Like you just like being in France.
Rowena: I do. I do.
Annie: Yeah.
Rowena: I do. I just love that joie de vivre that, you know, the French people have. I like making things linger, you know?
Slowing down and enjoying, you know? It’s always so fast-paced here, you know?
But in France, people take the time, you slow down. You make things last. That coffee that you’re enjoying at a cafe, you’re not done in 15 minutes, you know? You’re sitting there, you know? You’re just letting time pass, but you enjoy it, you know? [00:43:00] It’s not because you don’t have anything to do, it’s because that’s what you want to do, is to enjoy it.
Annie:
Rowena: And it’s, there’s just so much history. We don’t have that old of a history here in the US, but then you go to France, you’ll hear history about during what, the, the 10th century, the ninth century, you know?
Annie: Yeah.
Rowena: That doesn’t exist here. You wonder why this tower is still standing. The things that happened in this tower, the people that had been there, that had made things happen, you know, that led up to what it is today we’re doing.
And the food, the food is great. I joke around that, you know, I can go to France. I’m not a dessert person. I can go to France, I can drink wine, I can have an appetizer. I’m not much of an appetizer person. I can have my main plate, [00:44:00] my cheese in between my main plate, and then my dessert. I don’t gain weight. I told my husband, it’s like, you know, there’s something magical. I don’t have to worry about that.
Annie: You walk so much in France probably, right?
Rowena: I walk here too a lot every morning. Yeah, but there’s, I think there’s just something.
Annie: I think everyday life in France, when you’re in a city in France, everything involves walking somewhere. And so you’re going to take 10 short walks throughout the day, whereas in the US, or for me, who lives in a more rural part of France, I go on a walk with my dogs, but then the rest of the day I’m just walking around my house or perhaps I’m doing this very short walk to the bakery or whatever. When you’re in cities, you don’t realize how much you walk, but, like, just going to, into the metro, going to the train station, going to catch a bus, [00:45:00] you’re going to be walking a lot, which is why I think people don’t gain so much weight when they come to France.
Rowena: Well, I know that there was an artiClé I think on Wall Street Journal that had talked about, like, something about… it was just came out recently because my husband sent me a link and I was laughing. I told you, "See? There’s truth in what I’m saying." But, like in Europe, like somehow food in Europe is… I don’t know if it was satire or something.
Annie: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Rowena: I think, the food, the quality of the food is also, it’s good, and also the price of food.
Annie: Mm-hmm.
Rowena: The price of, you know, food, it’s very, it makes a significant difference.
Language School Month
Annie: So overall, do you recommend people who can take the month, was it a good idea for you to take a whole month, do French classes in the morning, doing some visits in the afternoon and things like that? Is that something you think more people should do? because that’s unusual. A month is a long time.
Rowena: If one is serious about [00:46:00] learning French or any language, going to a school like that is very helpful. A month if you can do it. In fact, you know, I thought that a month was a little short for me. I felt like I needed another month because, you know, the first month and a half I’m there, I mean, at first week and a half I’m there with new people, new way of listening to when I’ve never heard them before, and my ears was just getting used to it. It was getting used to the process, you know? So it took me about a month and a half, I mean, a week and a half, I keep on saying a month and a half. A week and a half, and then, you know, then I’m comfortable. I was comfortable during that week, and then, like, getting into almost to the end, I’m like, I felt like I needed more time.
Annie: Mm. Mm.
Rowena: You know? So… so I don’t know. I think I’m going to play around with that, maybe do a five-week or six-week course if I can do it. And I like the idea of maybe going somewhere else or [00:47:00] even going back there because there’s just so much I didn’t get to see, you know, and wanted to see. Like, I wanted to go to Fontevraud, but it was so hard to work out the logistics of public transportation and getting out of there.
Annie: Yeah, Fontevraud is not easy to get to without a car.
Rowena: No, yeah. Yeah, I needed a car and all of that stuff.
Annie: Right.
Rowena: For a very serious learner, I think, the opportunity to go take a class somewhere especially something that is designed to be a small group, because all the classes were very small. They didn’t allow more than eight people in the class. There was one class for, it started with an A2 level, and then to C2, so they just happened, while I was there, they happened to have each of those levels full.
Annie: Wow. That’s quite a few people.
Rowena: Yeah, and I’ve met a couple of people who have been to that school. This was their second or third time that you know, they have been [00:48:00] to, have attended classes in that school.
Camino Plans Basque
Annie: So what part of the Camino are you doing? We need to wrap it up, but what part of the Camino are you doing this time?
Rowena: So I’m walking the Camino Francés, which technically starts in Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port. So I’m going to walk it all the way to Santiago, and then to the coast in Fisterra. But I want to get some time in France, not just, you know, in Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port. So I’m going to start about 10 days out before Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port in the village of Aire-sur-l’Adour.
Annie: Okay.
Rowena: So just right at the, almost to the Basque region. So I’m walking along the Basque region this time, which is a beautiful area.
Annie: Wonderful.
Rowena: I love that area.
Annie: Well, and I hope you’ll get fantastic weather.
Rowena: I hope so.
Annie: It’s finally cooling off at the end of the summer. We have rain predicted for the next few days, but I haven’t seen any rain yet, so.
Rowena: The forest fires have been less, I saw.
Annie: Oh, yeah, forest fires are mostly [00:49:00] under control most places, yeah. Well, just the fact that it’s not 100 degrees anymore, you know, that helps. That helps a lot.
Rowena: I think this, just this week, the weather, at least in Aire-sur-l’Adour, where I’m starting, because I’m also going to spend a couple of nights in Lourdes. Once I’ve get into Paris, I’m going to take a train to Lourdes, spend a couple of nights there, and then one night in Pau to take the bus to Aire-sur-l’Adour, because that’s the easiest way to get to Aire-sur-l’Adour. But I was, I’ve been checking the weather, and it’s kind of, the temperature is kind of similar here. But next week I saw that it cools down, you know, a little bit.
Annie: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Rowena: So hopefully I get better weather than two years ago.
Annie: It rained a lot on you, didn’t it two years ago? Yeah.
Rowena: Yes, it did.
Annie: Yeah. Well, Rowena, thank you so much for talking to me.
Rowena: Thank you, Annie.
France Bus Travel Tips
Annie: Have a wonderful time with your Camino. And thank you for sharing all these inspirational things to do. And I particularly [00:50:00] like that you took the bus, because, you know, Americans think, "Oh, bus, scary. No, I’m not taking the bus." But you know what? Buses in France are fine.
Rowena: They’re fine. They’re, like, luxurious. You know, they’re like the plus.
Annie: Yeah. They’re usually nice.
They’re very professional.
It is not scary at all.
Rowena: No.
Annie: So yeah. But the difficulty is that each region, each department, has its own bus service. So you need to figure out, what’s the name of the bus service where I’m going to be? And then once you find that, you can look into all the routes that they do and things like that.
Rowena: Yes.
And also, how can I pay? Can I pay at the bus driver, or do I have to get my bus fare in advance? You know, those kind of things.
Annie: Yeah, yeah.
Rowena: But once you get that, it’s just, you know, it’s easy. You get used to it.
Annie: Thank you very much, Rowena, and have yourself a wonderful walk.
Rowena: Thank you. I’ll see you later.
Annie: Buen Camino, as they say.
Rowena: Merci.
Annie: Au revoir.
Rowena: [00:51:00] A bientôt.
Annie: Au revoir, bientôt.
Thank you Patrons
Annie: Again, I want to thank my patrons for giving back and supporting the show. Patrons get several exclusive rewards for doing that. You can see them at patreon.com/joinus.
And a special shout-out this week to my new Join Us in French champion, Marjorie Schneider.
I would love for you to join them too, you can do it for very little money, and it really helps this show going because it’s my most predictable source of income.
And to support Elyse, go to patreon.com/elysart.
Eiffel Tower Strike
Annie: Now let’s talk about why the women who work at the Eiffel Tower called for an immediate strike and walked off the job this past week, and [00:52:00] they were joined by their male colleagues as well.
So the Eiffel Tower closed for part of Monday because staff walked off the job.
Here’s what happened. On Saturday, a delegation from BAPS, that’s a Hindu religious organization. I will try to say it, but please forgive me, and I’m not trying to be a horrible person, but I don’t speak any of these languages. It’s
Bochasanwasi Akshar Purushottam Swaminarayan Sanstha. They did a private visit of the tower. According to the tower’s own staff and their union, female employees were pulled off their posts during that visit. Some were replaced by men.
All the women working that day were told not to walk through certain areas while the group was there. [00:53:00] Staff called it a straight up violation of equality, and Monday they walked out. The company that runs the tower, the SETE, actually confirmed the delegation had asked for a visit that limited, and I’m quoting here, "Interaction with women."
The president of the SETE organization, Ariel Weil, is also the mayor of Paris city center, one of the mayors of Paris city center, said that’s obviously not an acceptable practice, and promised to investigate.
BAPS, the religious organization, responded on X. They said that to their knowledge, nobody was ever refused access to the tower, but they apologized to anyone who felt hurt or uncomfortable.
Let me back up for a second, because if you’re not French, this needs some explaining. This blew up so fast in France because of something called [00:54:00] laïcité, and it isn’t just separation of church and state the way Americans think of it. It’s a specific French legal principle written into law in 1905, la loi de Séparation des Églises et de l’État, under the Third Republic.
Before that, the Catholic Church ran a huge part of French life, schools, birth and marriage records, plenty of what we’d now consider government business. Getting the church out of that took over a century of fighting, starting with the revolution in 1789 and running through Jules Ferry’s secular school laws in the 1880s.
By 1905, France had had enough of any religion having a say in how the state or its institutions operate. So the deal today is this: the state does not fund, recognize, or favor any religion. [00:55:00] Public institutions and public servants are supposed to be neutral, full stop. Religion is private, full stop.
That’s why the 2004 law banning religious symbols in public schools happened, and the 2010 full face veil ban also happened.
It’s also why a delegation asking a public monument to limit interactions with women hits such a nerve. The Eiffel Tower is run by a public operating company, and neutrality in a public space is exactly the thing France fought for a century, more and longer to establish.
That’s the backdrop for the political reaction.
France’s Minister for Gender Equality, Aurore Bergé said, I’m translating here, "In France, we don’t ask women to erase themselves. No dogma, no religion outbanks the laws of the Republic." Presidential [00:56:00] candidate Marine Le Pen and Gabriel Attal both said the same basic thing in their own words, "No belief system gets to dictate where women stand in this country."
One more piece of content. This happened one day after BAPS inaugurated a brand-new temple in Bucy-Saint-Georges in the Seine-et-Marne, just outside of Paris, the first major temple this organization has built in France.
Some voices in the Indian diaspora here have pushed back on the organization itself, calling it Hindu nationalist in outlook.
Now, here’s my take, and this is just my opinion. If this had been a Muslim delegation asking for the same thing, I think the reaction would have been even bigger and happened faster.
I doubt they would have made it through the gates. France talks a big game about being equally strict with every religion, but in practice Islam [00:57:00] gets scrutinized in a way other religions don’t, and there are probably reasons for that. But that’s neither here nor there.
This story is a good example that laïcité as applied is not as even-handed as the principle would like to be.
The tower reopened Tuesday morning at 9:30, back to normal. If you had a ticket for a visit that got canceled on Monday, you’re getting a refund. But yeah, asking for special treatment because you’re a religious group does not do well in France.
I’m usually in the camp of live and let live. But that’s not what the women who work at the Eiffel Tower decided to do, and I think that’s their right, and it’s interesting.
Toulouse Dulles Flight
Annie: Let’s talk about the Toulouse to Dulles direct flight. So this is big travel news if you care about Toulouse or if you’re planning a trip to the southwest of France.
Starting April 26, [00:58:00] 2027, United Airlines is launching the first-ever nonstop flight between Toulouse and the United States. The route connects Toulouse Blagnac to Washington Dulles daily year-round. It flies on an Airbus A321XLR. And here’s a nice bit of local irony, that plane is actually assembled right here in Toulouse, so the aircraft connecting my city to America rolls off an assembly line a few miles from where I live. It’s kind of fun. It seats 150 people across four cabin classes, so this isn’t a stripped-down setup. It’s a brand-new plane as well. The outbound flight leaves Toulouse at 10:15 in the morning and lands at Dulles at 1:25 in the afternoon, same day, local time.
Coming back, it departs Washington at 6:05 in the evening and lands in Toulouse at 8:15 [00:59:00] the next morning. Flight time runs somewhere between 9 and 11 hours, depending on the winds, but that’s always the case. This is a real first for the region. It’s United’s first time flying into Toulouse at all, and the first American carrier based here, period.
Up until now, if you wanted to fly directly from the US to Toulouse, you couldn’t. You had to connect through Paris or another European hub. There were some direct flights between Montreal and Toulouse, but only in the summer months and only twice a week, and I assume these will come back next summer.
And given how many Americans already visit this part of France and how closely Toulouse is tied to Airbus, this route makes sense on paper. If you’re thinking about a spring 2027 trip to the Southwest, this is the one to watch. I’m sure I’ll be on this at some point because a 10:15 departure time from [01:00:00] Toulouse is so nice compared to all the crack-of-dawn flights we’ve had to endure for so long.
So this is going to be good. My new best friends, United, my new best friends, I tell you.
Final Thanks And Teasers
Annie: If you want a short recap of what came out this week in France, sign up for my free newsletter at joinusinfrance.com/newsletter.
My thanks to podcast editors Anne and Christian Cotovan, who produce the transcripts and the audio.
Next week on the podcast
Annie: Next week on the podcast, an episode about two women in the Panthéon, résistantes and militantes with Elyse. Always a great way to learn about French history.
Thank you so much for listening, and I hope you join me next time so we can look around France together. Au revoir.
Copyright
Annie Sargent: The join us in France Travel Podcast is written, hosted, and produced by Annie Sargent and copyright 2026 by Addicted to France. It is released under a Creative Comments, attribution, [01:01:00] non-commercial, no derivatives license.[01:02:00]
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Episode PageCategories: Learn French, Loire Valley