Table of Contents for this Episode
Categories: Christmas in France, Off the Beaten Track in France
577 40 visits to France with Janice Chan (Dec 21)
[00:00:16] Introduction and Welcome
Annie Sargent: This is Join Us in France, episode 577, cinq cent soixante-dix-sept.
Annie Sargent: Bonjour! I’m Annie Sargent, and Join Us in France is the podcast where we take a conversational journey through the beauty, culture, and flavors of France.
[00:00:31] Today on the podcast
Annie Sargent: Today, I bring you a conversation with returning guest, Janice Chan, about her 40 trips to France, and what she’s learned in all that time. You know, you visit France a lot when border guards stop asking you questions and just say, "Welcome back."
[00:00:49] Podcast supporters
Annie Sargent: This podcast is fueled by chocolatine, coffee, and the generosity of listeners like you. You book itinerary consults, take my VoiceMap tours in Paris, hop in my electric car for a day trip around the Southwest, or chip in on Patreon, and I am very grateful for that.
Annie Sargent: If you want to keep me going and skip the awful ads, there’s a link for that in the show notes. And you’ll find everything at joinusinfrance.com/boutique. And thank you very much.
[00:01:20] Magazine segment
Annie Sargent: For the Magazine part of the podcast, today, we’ll have a special chat between me and Elyse Riven of Toulouse Guided Walks about Christmas foods in France. We hope to inspire you for your own feast.
Annie Sargent: But I do want to send my thanks and a shout-out to new patrons, DC, Karen, Sandy, and Nisa Cable. And ladies and gents, keep in mind that if you’re looking for a Christmas gift for someone who enjoys this podcast, you can give them a Patreon membership, and I’ll work hard to provide them with outstanding entertainment for Francophiles every month on Patreon.
Annie Sargent: To join the Patreon community go to patreon.com/joinus, and to support Elyse, go to patreon.com/elysart.
Annie Sargent: And Joyeux Noël to you and yours!
[00:02:31] 40 Visits to France with Janice Chung
Annie Sargent: Bonjour, Janice Chung, and welcome back to Join Us in France.
Janice Chung: Oh, merci, Annie. It’s a pleasure to be on again.
Annie Sargent: Your fifth time. You are a faithful listener and participant. Thank you so much.
Janice Chung: Oh, you’re welcome. I’ve been listening to your podcast since your very beginning. It’s been a wealth of knowledge and information for me when I plan my trips, so thank you for having me on.
Annie Sargent: Wonderful.
[00:02:57] Why France Feels Like Home
Annie Sargent: So today, we’re going to talk about your 40th visit to France. You’ve had 40 times in France that, you know, most people are envious. But some people might think, "Why does she keep doing this?" So I want you to tell me about that and what kind of inspires you to come back again and again, and some of the gems that you’ve found.
Janice Chung: In a nutshell, it feels like home. I remember traveling with some girlfriends years ago, and we were riding our bikes in Paris, and one of the friends said, " You’re like a different person when you’re in France." And that’s when I really realized, yeah, I’m in my happy place. I love talking French or in my weak French, and I just feel so at home. The people are so friendly, you know, contrary to what people might complain about. I mean, I’m sure they complain about people in Canada anyways, where I live, but I just find the people so nice, and it’s just, it’s a unique experience to go.
Janice Chung: It’s different from where I live because I don’t live in French Canada. I live in the English part.
[00:04:02] Exploring Lesser-Known Regions
Annie Sargent: I’m sure you’ve visited just about every part of France at this point. Are there any parts you haven’t been to at all?
Janice Chung: Probably more north, like Lille, that upper northern area. I’ve only done the Alsace once. Oh, no, that’s not quite true. Sorry, I keep forgetting I went one winter a few years ago. More of the western part of Brittany, but you know, that’s been my aim over the last, especially the last 10 to 15 years, is to seek out new places, new experiences.
Janice Chung: I mean, I’ll always love Paris. I always go back. I mean, the flights start and end often… (in Paris)
Annie Sargent: Exactly.
Janice Chung: But I try to venture out, and I might not go to the top 10, top 20. I don’t really care. To me, it’s, you know, something that’s unique.
[00:04:49] Unique Experiences in Ardèche
Janice Chung: For example, my last trip, I was in the Ardèche, where I’ve been to before. The Ardèche is located, they call it, I think south east, it’s south of Lyon, south of Paris, very rugged, lots of mountains, gorges, but I wanted to take a train ride. That was my goal. I want to go down to the Ardèche and do the Train de l’Ardèche.
Annie Sargent: Yes.
Janice Chung: So I create a whole part of my trip around that location.
Janice Chung: And so that’s what I often do. I’ll find something unique and then create an itinerary, part of my itinerary around that.
Annie Sargent: Right. Right. And so this Train de l’Ardèche, is that like a one or two hour experience? Or what sort of a train?
Janice Chung: So this was actually a full day excursion.
Janice Chung: Typically, people will simply book a train ride, and it takes you along the River Doux, D-O-U-X, and you see the gorge and that kind of thing. But this was a little different. You took a train ride to a small town. You had two, two and a half hours to venture into the town, and it was called Boucieu-le-Roi.
Janice Chung: And afterwards, you get on another little train, you go north for, oh, 20 minutes, and then you hop on a Velo rail. And a Velo rail looks like, you remember Herbie Volkswagen Beetle? I think Herbie was a little car back in the ’60s. So it looks like that with the top off, and you pedal in this car on the track.
Janice Chung: Now, the good news is it’s downhill slightly, so you don’t have to have much, you know, strength, which is great. When the woman said, "Oh, I don’t have anyone else to go in your car with you. Do you want to pedal on your own? The car only weighs 250 kilograms." And I looked at her, and I went, "Are you kidding me?" And then she said, "No, no, it’s easy."
Janice Chung: And I went, "Okay, well, I’m a runner." She said, "Oh, you’ll be fine." And she was right. Because you’re going downhill slightly, there’s some momentum, you know, there’s gravity. You’re only doing it for eight kilometers.
Annie Sargent: Eight kilometers?
Janice Chung: Yeah. Oh, it’s nothing, because you’re going pretty fast.
Janice Chung: You’re basically backtracking on that ride up, and it was beautiful because you’re passing bridges, farmland, and it’s a riot. It was just too bad that it poured rain the first 15 minutes, and I didn’t bring a raincoat.
Annie Sargent: Uh-oh.
Janice Chung: But then we all dried out.
Annie Sargent: Right.
Janice Chung: Like with the wind, and then the sun came out. It was bizarre weather. But that was a lot of fun. So we get back to the small town, have about half an hour, and then you get on the Train de l’Ardèche to head back to the main town.
Annie Sargent: Okay.
Janice Chung: It was fun. Lots of kids, adults.
Annie Sargent: Yeah.
[00:07:38] Running and Racing in France
Annie Sargent: (Mid-roll ad spot) You like unique experiences. That’s one of the, that was one of the titles of one of the episodes we did together…. you like to run so you like to participate in race. Looks to me like you do a race just about every time you come, right?
Janice Chung: Okay. So that’s the other thing. I plan my trips around races. So in this case, I think I found the Adidas 10K Paris race, which was June 8th, and I thought, "Yeah, maybe I’ll do that race." The only problem was, it was at the end of my trip, and I always try to have a race at the beginning because then my legs aren’t tired from doing a lot of walking. And the other problem was, I didn’t run at all for the two and a half weeks leading up to the race.
Annie Sargent: Ah.
Janice Chung: So I felt, quote, "out of shape." But I… It was fine, it was only 10K. And that race, I would say, was one of the most beautiful. I mean, besides the one crossing the Millau Viaduct, that was beautiful.
Janice Chung: But this one ended at the Arc de Triomphe, and there’s no traffic, obviously, on the main street or around the Arc de Triomphe, and you’re running uphill towards the Arc de Triomphe with the gigantic French flag, you know, hanging from the middle. It was a nice ending.
Annie Sargent: That’s beautiful.
Janice Chung: So that was a good race.
[00:08:53] Travel Preferences and Challenges
Annie Sargent: And I assume when you come to France, you’ve done this so many times. Do you have a favorite way to get around, or do you just have to use all sorts of different ways because you go to all these different places?
Janice Chung: I often will do a car rental. However, as I get older, I’m disliking driving more and more. One is because of fear of getting a speeding ticket. There’s so much photo radar, which is good. I’m not against that, but I’ve got caught boistering one trip 10 years ago.
Annie Sargent: Ah, that’s not too bad.
Janice Chung: Yeah, I’m cautious driving, but it’s also, I get lost. I’ve no sense of direction, and with GPS, you can’t always trust GPS. So I try to depend on train more so, but that’s really tough because you can’t go to the small villages. And lately, I’ve been visiting the Aveyron, and I love that region of France. So that’s even further south than the Ardèche. That’s where Millau is, that’s where Rodez, some beautiful villages, but you really can’t reach them by train.
Annie Sargent: Right.
Annie Sargent: Well, you could go to Rodez on the train, but then, you know. Yeah, yeah, so you need a car a lot of places.
[00:09:58] Biking Adventures in France
Annie Sargent: Have you taken up any biking? No?
Janice Chung: Yes. I did two biking trips, but that was in, like 2006 and 2007.
Janice Chung: I love biking tours. The only downside is, you’re biking all day, you arrive in the town, you shower, relax, have dinner, so you really haven’t had enough time to visit the towns. I’ve done Burgundy, and Bordeaux. And as much as I loved it, I just felt like I haven’t had time to see Beaune or, you know, other towns. So that’s the only downside.
Annie Sargent: Yes, and I can see how, like, unless you really limit yourself to short rides, so teeny little flea hops, you know?
Annie Sargent: Then you might have a bit of energy and time for visits, but…
Janice Chung: Yeah. I mean, I have rented a bicycle a couple of times. One was in Sarlat, and I bicycled around the area, and that was lovely. France has the best bicycle trails. I rode from Arcachon down to Dune du Pilat.
Annie Sargent: Aha!
Janice Chung: The bicycle trails are so well done. We’re so behind in Toronto, where I live. I’ve also… Where else have I biked? Oh, I rented a bike in Provence. So every now and then, I will rent a bicycle for a day trip.
Janice Chung: Oh, Canal du Midi, that was beautiful.
Annie Sargent: Yeah.
Janice Chung: From Carcassonne, and then I went east, came back, and then, "Oh, okay, I’ll go west now." And, you know, through the locks and along the canal was beautiful.
Annie Sargent: And you usually travel by yourself, right?
Janice Chung: At times with friends. It just… Not always, yeah.
Annie Sargent: Right, right.
Annie Sargent: I assume that you enjoy traveling by yourself so that you can decide what you want to do and you don’t have to coordinate with anybody else?
Janice Chung: Yeah. Except during my last trip, I kept thinking, "Gosh, if I had somebody with me that could help me with the directions-" "… and not get lost." That was the only downside. Yeah. No, It is fun traveling with friends or family. I haven’t traveled with my family, I guess, since the very first trip.
Janice Chung: That’s right. I met up with my niece and her husband in Paris and we had lunch together, and we went to the Palais Garnier for a guided tour. So it was fun meeting up with, you know, family.
Annie Sargent: Yeah. Yeah. Do you have a favorite part of France after all of these years? Is there one that you’re pretty sure you want to come back to?
Janice Chung: The Aveyron. And it’s funny, I really only discovered it when I did that… it wasn’t a half marathon, it wasn’t a full marathon. I don’t know how they picked the distance, but the whole aim was to run over the Millau Viaduct. It was a really tough race. It was in the month of May, but there was a heatwave.
Annie Sargent: Uh-huh.
Janice Chung: And about five kilometers was uphill. And crossing the Millau Viaduct, I didn’t realize because you can’t stop when you’re in your car, there’s these big gigantic plexiglasswalls, let’s say, on the side, so you don’t get the clearest view of the valley. And plus, during a race, you’re running across it, so it’s… you don’t want to waste time and stop. And it was a bit windy, too. And I remember, "Oh my God, it’s bouncing, too."
Annie Sargent: Yeah. The bridge bounces, yeah.
Janice Chung: But I love the Aveyron. I mean, Okay, you’re going to have to remind me. The mashed potatoes with garlic and tomme cheese.
Janice Chung: Aligot.
Annie Sargent: The aligot, yeah. Ah.
Janice Chung: Oh. Oh, my God, that’s so good.
Annie Sargent: After a race, that’s good food. Don’t have it too many times before the race or you’ll end up like me, but if you just had a race, you’re good to go with the aligot, yeah. The typical is aligot saucisse.
Janice Chung: Right, exactly. Yeah. I love it. Oh, my God. There’s some really interesting foods down in the Aveyron, and so it was a nice change, but especially the villages. Le Plus Beau Village de France, there are a number of them in the Aveyron.
Annie Sargent: I think there’s 12 of them.
Janice Chung: Yeah. And I visited them all. That’s the only department in France where I visited them all. And I don’t, you know, "Okay, let’s drive there." It just, if I happen to pass it, I will drop in. So I’ve seen 55 of the 182 villages, and not all of them are great.
Annie Sargent: Yes, yes. Most of them are really interesting. We had an episode about the… Exploring just the Aveyron. Every now and then, we do an episode that’s just this one department, and that was episode 504 of the podcast, if you want to dig into it some more.
Annie Sargent: Listen, it’s a beautiful part of France, it really is, and it deserves more highlighting because it’s just gorgeous and not super touristy.
Janice Chung: And it’s not overrun with tourists. I found no one really spoke English, which was great for me because that meant I, you know, had to practice my French. So that’s probably another reason I really like it.
Annie Sargent: You’ve been to France to do… Do you always do a language class at the same time, or sometimes, or…
Janice Chung: This time… What is… Ah. I traveled… Yeah, I began my trip… I like to start with French immersion, it kind of warms you up for your trip. So this time, yes, I did, and I’ve been really enjoying at Ecole des Trois-Ponts having classes in the morning and then going for countryside walks in the afternoon, because when you’re walking with other people and expected to speak French, and so it’s good practice.
Annie Sargent: Yeah, that’s something like the boot camp, but at the boot camp, they do French class in the morning, and then we do visits in English. And people have asked me if we could do the visits in French, but it’s too hard. We have too many different levels, you know?
Annie Sargent: You have the beginners, you have the super advanced people. So my rule is if you speak French to me, I will respond in French. But I can’t do better than that because there’s too many levels of… Yeah. So I should say that the Aveyron is in Occitanie, of course. My hometown, my home region. The Southwest just has a lot that people… I mean, we talk about it over and over again on the podcast, but I’m not sure people realize how much there is to do in this area, truly.
Janice Chung: It’s a big area too. And that’s why I stayed in… Well, during one trip, I stayed in Millau, partly because of the race, and then Rodez. And then this time, I stay… Oh, well, no, it’s the trip before, I guess it was trip 39, yeah, in October. I stayed in Espalion, which is the northern part.
Annie Sargent: Yes.
Janice Chung: Beautiful town. Has a weekly market, a number of restaurants. Like, it wasn’t too small, because when I did my research, there were some places that had nothing, and I thought, "No, that’s too quiet for me."
Annie Sargent: Yeah, yeah. There are places that are truly, truly very teeny tiny. And so you, you want something… Yeah, I recommend people don’t stay in places that are so small that there’s no restaurants or just one place to eat. Like, you know, if you’re staying there several nights, you need a place to try and have some food.
Annie Sargent: France surely has changed over time, over this 40 year, the 40 visits. Is it a visit a year, or do you do more than one visit a year typically?
Janice Chung: It varies. I mean, COVID threw a wrench into everything. I think for a while, I was doing two a year, but now I’m doing, you know, one… So I did October 2024, May/June 2025, so let’s say, I guess, that was two in one year.
[00:17:12] Changes in France Over the Years
Annie Sargent: And so, how has France changed over this time? Have you noticed anything?
Janice Chung: Oh, yeah. So I have to say that one of the first things that I noticed was the lack of dog poo. I know that sounds really weird, but I remember my very first trip, and there was dog poop, and maybe I’m only thinking of Paris, on the sidewalk all the time. Today, no, not at all. People pick up. The second thing I really remember was smoke, smoking. The smoke fumes were really bad. Even the car fumes, that really bothered me. I was 19 at the time, first trip to France, and you know, certain things stand out, and that was another thing that really stood out.
Janice Chung: I mean, I would say overall, the change has been really good, not just for France, but for the world. You know, technology has certainly made things easier in terms of booking trips, booking, you know, hotels. I mean, in the old days, it was, you know, through a travel agent. But, you know, some things… So in 1978, when the family… we went to Paris, and then we traveled down to Avignon, and at the time, there was a train that was called Le Mistral, named after the wind. But it was luxurious. We went to the dining car, and it was white linen service. And after the first course, I don’t think my father realized that there are more courses coming. But they ended it, I think, in the early 1980s. It’s too bad, because that was a really special experience. So you know, there are certain things that… I’m trying to think what else is different.
Annie Sargent: Do people speak better English?
Janice Chung: Yes, I think so. It’s funny. I was going to say you’ll find more English-speaking people, certainly in Paris. I mean, I think they often say that there aren’t many true Parisians in Paris. They’re all from other places. But I don’t know if that’s true.
Annie Sargent: At least half of them are imports, yeah. Yeah, yeah, imports from other places in France.
Janice Chung: So, back in 1978, the Paris Metro used to have two classes of service, first class and second class. I think during certain periods of time, maybe it was rush hour, you were allowed to go into first class. But yeah, and they got rid- I can’t remember when they got rid of that.
Annie Sargent: Oh, yeah. That’s been a long time. That’s been a long time. Yeah.
Janice Chung: Yeah. I remember that. That was interesting. You know, and then recently, they got rid of the tickets on the Paris Metro, and it’s now just the Navigo.
Annie Sargent: Yeah, Navigo. Yeah, you have contactless, and… yeah.
Janice Chung: The other thing I’m finding, too, is that they’re using QR codes more and more for menus, and I think it’s the result of COVID. But I found it on menus, not the more expensive restaurants, thank goodness, they’ve stayed the same.
Annie Sargent: I was in a restaurant recently where you could even pay from your phone. So you don’t have to wait for the bill. You can just flash your code and say, oh, my, you know, my bill, I can look at my bill and pay it. It’s pretty cool.
Janice Chung: So, you know, technology has really. …
Annie Sargent: It’s changing things.
Janice Chung: … affected us. It made it easier, maybe a little less personal. The other thing I’ve really noticed are travel guides. I don’t know if you remember. Who was it? Let’s Go France, Let’s Go Europe, orFrance on 20 Dollars a Day.
Annie Sargent: Oh, wow.
Janice Chung: You won’t be doing that anymore.
Annie Sargent: Prices have gone up quite a bit, and honestly, they went up during the pandemic, they went up during the Ukraine problems. I don’t think they have really come down very much.
Annie Sargent: Like, I used to say you can find a decent hotel in Paris for 150. By now, it’s more like 250. It’s really … I mean, this is Paris. There’s still plenty of places outside of the big cities where you can find incredible deals. You know, you will find some sort of chateau that has 20 rooms, and if you go off season, they’ll rent them to you for 60 euros a night, which is unbelievable.
Janice Chung: Yeah, it’s outside of the big cities where the prices are a little more reasonable. But Paris is, like, ugh. Even the meals I’m finding more expensive.
Annie Sargent: Yeah, it used to be you could eat a good meal for 12 euros, now 20 is really the bare minimum, you know.
Janice Chung: But, you know, to get around that, I often will order a menu of the day, or a pichet,carafe, you know, of the house wine, which is often very good.
Annie Sargent: Yeah. You can find a bottle of wine in a French restaurant for 25 or so, but a pichet de vin or carafe de vin I would say 12, the half? You know, it’s half usually, and yeah. Yeah. So, I think we’ve evolved. The food has evolved some now. We have all these foods that we didn’t use to have, likethe burgers. You find burgers on almost every menu, right? Because French people love them. And some of them are pretty good.
Janice Chung: Yeah.
[00:22:14] Travel Duration and Cat Care
Annie Sargent: So, you really like slower travel. I mean, you get a lot done in your trip. Yeah, how long are your trips typically? Is it two weeks, three weeks?
Janice Chung: Two to three weeks. I mean, the odd time I’ve gone … My sister was nice enough to take care of my cat for, it was two and a half months. So this was 2019, before obviously the pandemic.
Janice Chung: Because I just can’t go away that long. My neighbor will take care of my cat, come over and take care of my cat. But to go away for 10 weeks, it was fabulous.
Janice Chung: I leased a car, so that was great, that made it cheaper. And I spent chunks of time in areas. In the Dordogne, for example, I stayed a week in Sarlat and a week in Beynac. So that was nice to really explore that area. Same with Provence, you know, two weeks. So, chunks of time.
[00:23:05] Discovering a Love for France
Annie Sargent: Is there a moment when you realized that you were going to come back over and over again? Or did this just- do you keep making the decision every time?
Janice Chung: In 2011, I think it was 2011, before I started my blog and all that …… I was at French immersion, and our homework for the evening was to write about something that we are passionate about. I went back to my room and going, "Oh, I don’t know what to write about. I don’t know." And then I realized, oh, my God, I love France. I think that’s when I really realized I had this addiction. I had this love for France. Because I think up until 2011, I had only traveled, I’ll make it up, 10 times, maybe even less than that. It’s only been in the last… Yeah, in the last, what, 15 years that I’ve really visited a lot.
[00:23:54] Starting a Travel Blog
Annie Sargent: And your blog is France Travel Tips. It’s very good. It’s…
Janice Chung: Thank you.
Annie Sargent: … very interesting. You write specific themed articles about things that you do. Tell us a little bit about this blog of yours.
Janice Chung: Yeah, I started it in 2013 or ’14, and the initial aim was about unique experiences, but then I also have posts that are about tips, things that I’ve encountered.
Janice Chung: So for example, I don’t… I think I only have one guest post, but I don’t have guest posts because I want to share my experience, problems I’ve encountered.
Janice Chung: So as you know, I’ve had some car issues, and what’s interesting is I will have people put in the comments, "Oh, I got a speeding ticket too. Thank you for explaining how to pay the ticket," blah, blah, blah. Or how a car rental company tried to charge me for damage, but I had photos before I took the car and after.
Janice Chung: And so it’s things like that. So sharing real experiences with people, you know, which is why I wrote that post about taking French immersion because I have been to three different schools in France and I was comparing them.
Janice Chung: Because, you know, I loved one, the other two and not so much, and here’s why.
Janice Chung: So I do a mixture of tips or, you know, things to solve your problems and unique experiences, which has really made my traveling different.
[00:25:22] Unique Travel Experiences
Janice Chung: So now when I travel, not I guess first for the blog, second for the blog is to find something unique, something new, because I get bored too.
Janice Chung: I mean, when I was in Paris back in June, I didn’t go to any of the museums except the modern art one. Because I’ve been to the Louvre, I’ve been to the Musée d’Orsay. Now granted, it’s been a number of years, but that’s not new for me. I did go back to Notre Dame, of course, because I wanted to see the restoration. But then I added in new things. For example, I did a day trip to see the French Open, I got cheap tickets to the outside courts.
Annie Sargent: Yeah.
Janice Chung: That was great. Doing the race. And then I just spent time walking, just walking, walking, walking throughout Paris-
Annie Sargent: Yeah.
Janice Chung: Because I love it so much. On my website, I do look for those different experiences that are new to me, but things that people might go, "Oh, I’m going to be in that area, maybe I’ll check that out."
[00:26:16] Booking Trips and Accommodations
Annie Sargent: When you put together a trip, do you start with the airfare? Do you start with a race, perhaps a class you want to take? What’s the first thing you worry about?
Janice Chung: Probably an experience that I want to do first. So it might be can I do the countryside walks with Ecole des Trois-Ponts during that week? If it’s yes, then I’ll book that and then I’ll book the airfare, because there’s no use me booking the airfare and then finding out I can’t do the… Because last year, what hap- or this year, they were fully booked February, March, and April for the countryside walks because I’d left it too long.
Janice Chung: But, so Valerie emailed me, she said, " If you’re thinking about doing the countryside walks, you might want to book it now because it’s, you know…" And it was. It was full by the time I went. So I tend to look for an experience like The Adidas, 10K Paris, and then I’ll book the airfare.
Annie Sargent: And Ecole des Trois-Ponts is in Sancerre?
Janice Chung: In Roanne. so I know I’m not pronouncing it right, and it’s west of Lyon.
Annie Sargent: Ah, Roanne. R-O-A-N-N-E.
Janice Chung: Very easy to get to by train. It’s like another town. When I arrived at the school, there were two other students there who had visited the same town I had, that I had visited on the way to the Ecole des Trois-Ponts. I’m going to spell it for you, and I’m not going to say it because I’m sure I’ll say it wrong.
Annie Sargent: Okay.
Janice Chung: O-I-G-N-T.
Annie Sargent: Oignt.
Janice Chung: Oignt. It’s one of the Les Plus Beaux Villages de France.
Annie Sargent: Is it really?
Janice Chung: Yeah.
Annie Sargent: Not anywhere near me because I haven’t seen that one.
Janice Chung: No, it’s west of Lyon.
Annie Sargent: Okay. But, you know, I mean, proper names like that, there’s no way to know for sure until you go and then they tell you, "Oh, you’re doing it wrong." You know? So sometimes, I mean, I would… if I was going to say this, I would say, "Oignt. Wah, wah, wah."
Janice Chung: Wah. Exactly. That was it. And I went, "Oh, okay, that’s how you say it."
[00:28:14] Navigating French Language and Culture
Janice Chung: But the French are so… you know, I know there have been some people who feel insulted when they get corrected by someone who’s French. I love it. I love when they correct me, you know? And they don’t do it in a mean way either. It’s more of a casual…
Annie Sargent: Yeah, yeah. You can’t get good at a language unless somebody corrects you. Like, it’s just how it is. My husband is excellent at French, but he’s… does speak English…. mostly all day for his work. And, you know, he gets … Sometimes he’s … Like the other night, we were having dinner with a French friend. And so the entire thing was in French, and he made a couple of silly mistakes and she wasn’t correcting him and I was there doing something in the kitchen and I overheard him and I just yelled it out and she’s like, "Yeah, you’re right. You’re right. He did that wrong." But, you know, but she doesn’t dare correct him. And I’m like, "No, you got to correct him. He’s never going to get…" You know, but it’s little mistakes, very like a gender thing or an agreement that he forgets or something. Because some of the agreements you can see but not hear. And some of them, you can both see and hear. So he missed a couple of them.
Annie Sargent: Anyway, French people don’t, some of us don’t mind correcting others and some of us are like, "No, I’m not going to correct him." Especially if their French is very good. Like, you don’t want to hurt their feeling or something, because it’s someone who’s almost … Like he’s C1, going on C2. There’s very few things that will stomp him, but anyway.But it’s great that you have a favorite language school like that because it really helps. And if you go places that, where they don’t constantly switch to English, that really helps as well, you know.
[00:29:55] Favorite French Foods
Annie Sargent: Do you have any favorite, like your favorite French food, besides Aligot? You mentioned the Aligot already. But do you have other favorite French foods that you think people should try?
Janice Chung: I love boeuf bourguignon. And my mother’s not alive anymore, but you know, when she made beef stew, it wasn’t good. Somebody said, "Oh yeah, in the old days, they didn’t use the best beef," perhaps. I don’t know. But I love having it when I’m in France. I’m sure the escargot, it’s because of the butter and garlic. It has nothing to do with the snails. Oh, I love cassoulet. Oh my God, I love cassoulet. I make a version of it that I saw in Runner’s World Magazine. It’s close, but I don’t use duck, you know. But I love white beans and, you know.
Annie Sargent: Yeah, yeah. It’s good stuff. It’s good stuff.
Janice Chung: So yeah, there’s certain regional dishes that I do love.
[00:30:46] Travel Tips for First-Time Visitors
Annie Sargent: So if you meet someone who’s never been to France and you … after your 40 trips, what tips do you share with them? What things do you say, "Okay, you have to know about this"?
Janice Chung: Number one would be if you’re going to enter a store, you have to say Bonjour first. Like if there’s one thing, the only thing I would advise, it would be that.
Janice Chung: Other things I would say is, try speaking French. Do not start off by saying Parlez vous Englais? No, no, don’t do that. Don’t do that. Just try. Because eventually they’ll realize you don’t speak French and then they will perhaps try to speak English to you if you really don’t understand. The other thing is, let’s say Paris, because most people start their first trip in Paris or spend some time in Paris. You can’t do everything. Don’t try to do 20 monuments in one week because it’ll be a blur. You know, it’s like if today’s Tuesday, it must be Belgium. There are certain people who like to check things off their list. And I don’t know if they’ll ever go back, but that’s … You’re not experience the real France. You got to slow down, absorb things, sit at a cafe and just watch people go by, not your smartphone.
Annie Sargent: Ah, well …
Janice Chung: That’s why I like to walk along the Seine River. I just go, "Oh, wow, beautiful." You were asking me about how things have changed and one beautiful thing that’s changed is Pont des Arts. They removed all the millions, thousands of locks that were weighing down the bridge and actually, I think part of it had fallen off. And now there are plexiglass panels. And the bridge is beautiful now, more beautiful.
Janice Chung: So it’s like take advantage of that.
Janice Chung: One thing I realized in a conversation with my niece. So she’s been to France before and I kept saying, "Oh, you got to go back to Notre Dame, the restoration." And she’s going, "Ah, I don’t know." And I realized what might excite me might not excite other people.
Janice Chung: Now, they did end up going. I haven’t talked to her to see what she thought, but it will be interesting because that’s something … you know, after 40 trips, I realized not everybody will like what I like.
Annie Sargent: That’s true. That’s so true.
Janice Chung: Some people only want to do museums. I get a little bored after a while with museums. So, to each his own.
[00:33:02] Cash and Contactless Payments
Annie Sargent: How much cash do you bring when you come to France? That’s probably something that has changed, right? You used to have to have cash, but not so much now.
Janice Chung: Yeah, Traveler’s checks. American Express traveler’s check. Yeah, I mean, even in the last couple of years, things have changed dramatically. Everything is contactless payments. And I use Apple Pay, so my credit card is secured in that. I think I only brought about 250 euros cash.
Annie Sargent: Did you use that much?
Janice Chung: No, I came back with like 60 or whatever. I mean, I’ll spend it because I had it.
Janice Chung: No, I didn’t need that much. But you do need coins, like for washrooms sometimes. You know, even at the f- farmer’s markets, they’ll take credit card. You don’t have to worry about cash.
Annie Sargent: Yeah, because most of your phone, you can turn your phone into a contact less payment system. You could use your phone to take payments as well as make payments.
Janice Chung: Right. I mean, if it’s only a euro or two, I’ll use cash. I think more and more countries are following that, where, no, don’t worry about cash.
Annie Sargent: This is a question that I get a lot, is "how much cash should I bring?"
Annie Sargent: I’m like, really, if you have 80 euros, definitely don’t bring big bills. Do not let your bank give you 100 euro bills. You can’t use them anywhere. Like nobody wants to take a chance on … because unless they have a machine to detect counterfeits, you know, they don’t want to be stuck with 100 euros….
Janice Chung: Yeah, no, the highest denomination would be 20 euros.
Annie Sargent: You could do 50. 50 I can use. Like if I’m buying a meal for two people and there’s going to be 40, then yeah. It depends on how much you’re buying. You don’t want them to give you a ton of cash, and you can’t really ask French people to give you change either. We don’t have change. Like we don’t have cash. Even if you go to my bakery, I pay contactless, everything. There are people who show up at the bakery with their euro 30 for the baguettes, you know, but I don’t, I just use contactless.
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[00:35:03] Booking accommodation
Annie Sargent: Do you have a good tip for people to book accommodations besides … I mean, you use Booking all the time and … Or you book direct?
Janice Chung: I only book direct. When I’m in Paris, I’ve been staying at the Citadine Bastille Marais. It’s an apartment hotel. I won’t do … I refuse to do Airbnb because there’s too many scams. I remember way back in 2019 when I was looking at that 10-week trip. The first time I booked Airbnb in Paris, they canceled a few days later, so that’s fine. I didn’t lose any money. Booked another one, they canceled, and I went, "You know what? I don’t like this."
Janice Chung: So the Citadine, it’s an Ascott company. They own many companies, or properties, and Citadine, they have at least four different properties in Paris. And it’s an apartment hotel, but what I like, that I don’t think people realize this compared to Airbnb or VRBO, I didn’t have to clean the room before I left. They also replace, say, toilet paper every few days. There was 24-hour coffee, tea machine in the lobby, free of charge. … And, to be honest, they had concierges. Like they had a front desk open 24 hours. There’s something comforting at times knowing that you have, you know, someone to call upon.
Annie Sargent: Right, and if you arrive early or late they can store you some luggage for you. They can call a taxi for you. You can just tell them, "Listen, I have to be at the airport at 8:00 tomorrow. What do you recommend?" And they will tell you what to do, because they do it all the time. And they also know if there’s like a strike going on. We’ve had taxi strikes, slowdowns and things. They will know about these things. And these things evolve very quickly, so it’s not like you can listen to the podcast and I’m going to tell you what’s going to happen in six months. There’s no way to know, so just ask the person at the desk.
Annie Sargent: And Citadine has been good. You also get a small little kitchen with a … You know, it’s mostly … I mean, it’s a hot plate and a tiny microwave, and a bit of a under-the-counter fridge kind of thing. …
Janice Chung: And you won’t get … You know, I know in Airbnb or home rentals, you’ll get, oh, there’s the olive oil, salt, pepper. You won’t get any of that. It’s bare bones. But you’ll get the cutlery and all the utensils, so it’s fine, you know?
Annie Sargent: Do you cook for yourself a lot or do you just like …
Janice Chung: Yeah, I mean, obviously breakfast and the odd time, because I will … I tend to eat more of my big meals at lunch, not dinner.
Annie Sargent: French style.
Janice Chung: Yeah. And so sometimes, you know, I’ll eat in my apartment, dinner, you know?
Janice Chung: Or I’ll make myself a picnic lunch if I’m going out.
Annie Sargent: Have you tried Picard?
Janice Chung: No. I … And it’s funny because there is one located near the Citadine. I should go in and take a look at what they’ve got, because I hear it’s fabulous.
Annie Sargent: Yes, you should try stuff. Yeah, it’s good, it’s good. You should try, you should try.
Annie Sargent: It’s perfect. You pick up something and you put it in the microwave and you have a nice French meal, you know, a few minutes later. It’s good, I swear.
Janice Chung: I know. I really should.
Annie Sargent: Next time. That’s on your list for next time.
Janice Chung: Yes.
Annie Sargent: I have found that it’s become so easy with apps and stuff to keep in touch with family, with friends. I don’t know if you do Facebook messaging or WhatsApp or… Have you converted to WhatsApp or not yet?
Janice Chung: No, I’ve got WhatsApp but I don’t use it much. If I do video calls, it will be either FaceTime, because I have an Apple product, or Facebook Messenger, because you can do video. I used to do Skype and it was kind of my backup phone, because way back, and this is a long time ago, the SIM card that I had for my phone would not let me do 1-800 numbers.
Annie Sargent: Ah.
Janice Chung: And plus it would get more expensive, so I would use Skype calls, but they ended that this year. It really came in handy in 2020. I was in the south of France and they’d locked down Italy. It was right during COVID. I was there for the the CiTron,Fête du CiTron in Menton. I had to change my flights, all that kind of stuff, so I used Skype to make my phone calls.
Annie Sargent: Skype has disappeared. Now it’s, you have to use Teams instead.
Janice Chung: Yes, exactly.
Annie Sargent: Okay, last question.
[00:39:26] Medical Encounters in France
Annie Sargent: Over this whole time, these 40 trips, have you had encounters with French medical stuff? Because, I mean, you’re a very healthy person, but you might have hurt yourself or something.
Janice Chung: So, in December 2023, I arrived in Paris and I thought I had a cold, but the cold got worse and I had a really sore throat, and I didn’t bring along the antigen test. And the antigen test showed, "Oh, you have COVID." And I had had all my vaccines.
Janice Chung: Don’t forget, this is the end of 2023 and I had never had COVID. So I called… I have health insurance, and I called the company. For some reason I thought she would give me advice on what to do. All she could do was give me, "Okay, where are you staying? We can tell you what doctors to visit or what clinics."
Janice Chung: Okay, that’s fine. The first clinic I went to, they said, "Oh, no, we don’t have any doctors here today." But she did tell me that, "You can go here," and it wasn’t that far. I went and I was able to see a doctor in, like, 15 minutes. He only spoke French. Thank God I understood most of what he was saying. He did not prescribe any behind-the-counter medication. He only prescribed cough spray, like, because I had a very sore throat, cough syrup and something like Tylenol.
Janice Chung: The bill was about €50 and he had a payment machine on his desk, so I paid right then and there. I went to the pharmacy, got it filled, and then when I got home I submitted my receipts. So that went beautifully. The doctor was great. You know, if you don’t speak English, yeah, it might have been a little harder. If you don’t speak French, I’m sorry. What surprised me though, now, the bill for my medication only came to, like, $70, but the paperwork required to get reimbursed was ridiculous. You had to prove that you actually did leave for France, that you came back … et cetera, et cetera. I mean, I got all my money back, but, you know, I think they’re thinking, "Well, people don’t want to go through the hassle."
Annie Sargent: Yeah. Do you get travel insurance when you come, or no?
Janice Chung: Yes, it’s included with my retirement health plan that I pay for.
Annie Sargent: Okay. Okay. So you have it that way. I think I would recommend, even people who are fairly young and whatever, and if you’re not used to traveling, travel insurance is probably a good idea for most people.
Janice Chung: I always think if it had been something even more serious, at least I’d have somebody to talk to, " What should I do?" That kind of thing.
Annie Sargent: Yeah. Well, you can twist your ankle, you can, you know, slip on something, even if you are a very healthy person overall, I think it might be a good idea.
Annie Sargent: And I have this in mind because I was talking to some itinerary customers today who asked me for a recommendation, and I didn’t have one at the ready because in France we get our travel insurance through our bank. And so it’s just a yearly thing that we pay for. We pay a couple hundred a year.
Janice Chung: Yeah.
Annie Sargent: And it covers us year round anywhere we go, which is really reassuring, because you just don’t want to mess with being sick.
Janice Chung: Well, exactly. And, you know, certain countries that won’t… you know, their cost of medical care can be astronomical. So, even if you weren’t going to France, it might be somewhere else that you really need it, so it’s worth getting.
[00:42:51] Final Thoughts and Future Plans
Annie Sargent: Janice, you are awesome. We met once in person and I…
Janice Chung: I know, we have to do it again. Toulouse.
Annie Sargent: I hope to… Yes, you have to come to Toulouse and we’ll… I feel like I, like we’re friends because I’ve talked to you so many times.
Janice Chung: I know.
Annie Sargent: You need to come back to Toulouse and let me know and hopefully we can meet up.
Janice Chung: Oh, that would be lovely. Yeah, it’s been too long.
Annie Sargent: Thank you very much for chatting with me and best wishes on your 41st trip to France. Are you already planning it or not yet?
Janice Chung: Yes. I’m thinking about next year, obviously. So we’ll see. Yep.
Annie Sargent: All right. Thank you very much.
Janice Chung: Looking forward to it.
Annie Sargent: Au revoir.
Janice Chung: Thank you, Annie.
[00:43:32] Christmas Foods with Elyse and Annie
Annie Sargent: Joyeux Noël, Elyse!
Elyse Rivin: And Joyeux Noël to you, Annie!
Annie Sargent: So, we want to wish everybody Happy Holidays and a Merry Christmas.
Elyse Rivin: Yes, have a happy, happy holiday, whatever holiday it is.
Annie Sargent: Whatever holiday you celebrate. And we want to talk a little bit about popular Christmas foods in France.
Elyse Rivin: As if we never talk about food in France.
Annie Sargent: We like to eat.
Elyse Rivin: We like to eat.
Annie Sargent: So, let’s start with you. Your favorite kind of holiday treats.
Elyse Rivin: Well, treats is… I don’t even know about, if it’s really considered a treat. It’s a… First of all, I think everybody does know, I think, that in France, you eat chocolate at Christmas time, you know? The amount of chocolate that is sold at Christmas time is phenomenal. It’s absolutely phenomenal. And there’s no such thing as not having chocolates, whatever kind of chocolates you like. If you don’t eat chocolate, I feel sorry for you. That’s all I have to say, you know?
Annie Sargent: So do you have a favorite Christmas or French chocolate?
Elyse Rivin: Yes. Well, I like what they call a mendiant, which are the, they’re like wafer-looking pieces of chocolate. Of course, I like dark chocolate. I know you like milk chocolate. There are two or three very good chocolatier here in Toulouse that make their own, and then you have either pieces of dried nut or dried fruit in them, and it’s a lovely combination, and I just… There, it’s just enough. It’s like a, it’s a disc. It’s the size of a silver dollar, like, you know, that kind of size. It’s a perfect amount to not feel too guilty.
Annie Sargent: And it’s usually sold in, like, a little bag, a nice-looking bag, or a nice-looking box or something.
Elyse Rivin: Yes. And my other one, which is more of a sinful thing, is Mon Chéri.
Annie Sargent: Oh, yes. I love those.
Elyse Rivin: Those are tiny… What would you say? They’re like little cartridge-looking things that have a marinated cherry inside with a teeny little bit of alcohol.
Annie Sargent: Yeah, liqueur, kind of a cherry liqueur thing. Oh, it’s…
Elyse Rivin: A liqueur, yeah. And I love those.
Annie Sargent: Yeah, so my first choice would be a Escargot de Bourgogne, but the chocolate kind, not the snails.
Elyse Rivin: Right. Not the snails that move, right.
Annie Sargent: Yes. And then Mon Chéri would be my second one, yeah, for the chocolates.
Elyse Rivin: Those are good.
Annie Sargent: But I mean, I’ll have any chocolate. I also like the little orange dipped in… Yeah.
Elyse Rivin: Oh, the sticks? Yes, me too. Oh, well. You’re making my mouth water. And then outside of chocolate, I personally like to do something which is very common here in France but which is very uncommon in the States, and that is Guinea hen.
Annie Sargent: Aha.
Elyse Rivin: Which is pintade, I find it absolutely delicious. It’s especially-
Annie Sargent: But it’s very small. It’sfor a small crowd.
Elyse Rivin: It’s for a small crowd. It’s not like a turkey that you can make for a lot of people. Well, the fact is it’s, Christmas is usually just two or four of us. I mean, it’s not a big holiday because everybody’s scattered in, in my husband’s family pretty much everywhere. So if it’s just us, and just a couple of people coming over, I like to do that. It’s delicious. It’s very, it’s in the poultry family, obviously, but it’s a veryrefined taste. I don’t even know how to explain it. It doesn’t have a strong taste, but I really love the taste of it, and I usually make a chestnut stuffing with it.
Annie Sargent: Oh, very good. Yeah, but Christmas is the time when we eat a lot of chestnuts, roasted chestnuts that you can buy in the cities, or just the shelled chestnuts that I love, I love to buy. I can eat chestnuts anything, chestnut soup…
Elyse Rivin: Oh, you do? I’ve never had a chestnut soup. One day you have to make me one.
Annie Sargent: Yes, it’s very good.
Elyse Rivin: Oh. A very… Chestnut soup, yeah.
Annie Sargent: So, Christmas is also a time when we eat an inordinate amount of foie gras.
Elyse Rivin: Yes.
Annie Sargent: Everybody knows what that is, and here in the Southwest we have plenty.
Elyse Rivin: Yes, we do have plenty, yes.
Annie Sargent: Of foie gras.
Elyse Rivin: And oysters. You like oysters.
Elyse Rivin: I love oysters. I’m pretty much the only one… Well, me and my brother-in-law, my sister’s boyfriend, he also loves oysters, but it’s just the two of us left. The kids and all that, like my daughter, she will eat a couple, but she doesn’t love oysters, and I eat oysters. You love them, I know. Yeah, that’s not my thing at all.
Annie Sargent: Saumon fume, smoked salmon, is also a big item for a lot of families. So we’ll usually have it on toast with some sort of cream cheesy sort of thing on top. Bouchée à la reine is a big one.
Elyse Rivin: Oh, see, now that’s interesting. I’ve never had… I mean, I know what it is. I don’t think I’ve ever eaten one. My husband likes it, but I… It doesn’t appeal to me.
Annie Sargent: It’s a puff pastry, circular puff pastry with a hole in the middle.
Elyse Rivin: Right.
Annie Sargent: And in the hole you put, usually it’s going to be something with some sort of chicken. Sometimes it’s quenelle, quenelle from Lyon.
Elyse Rivin: Right.
Annie Sargent: Or, and cream and mushrooms.
Elyse Rivin: And cream and mushrooms, right. I think it’s because it’s that much cream that it doesn’t particularly appeal to me.
Annie Sargent: Yes. If you use 30% cream, it’s delicious.
Elyse Rivin: One of the things that is available at Christmastime and that I will eat some of and my husband absolutely adores is the Brie with the truffle or walnuts in the center of it.
Annie Sargent: Oh, yes, yes, yes.
Elyse Rivin: And that’s really, I assume that it’s everywhere because I know the two big specialty cheese shops here in Toulouse, they always have it at Christmas and usually you have to even reserve ahead to…
Annie Sargent: Yes. At Christmastime, I typically, my assignment is to bring the cheese and the wine that it goes with. And I just place an order with the local cheese shop of some fancy stuff, and find some fancy bottles.
Elyse Rivin: Right.
Annie Sargent: And to me, fancy bottle of wine for Christmas is going to cost 25 to 50 euros a bottle.
Elyse Rivin: Oh, well, I’ve never spent 50. That’s a lot.
Annie Sargent: 50 is a lot in France. Yes. But there’s not… I mean, if it’s 15, 16 of us, I mean, the cheese platter is at the end, you don’t drink that much by then.
Elyse Rivin: No.
Annie Sargent: Three bottles is enough, you know.
Elyse Rivin: 50 would probably be for an excellent champagne, you know, but otherwise you really don’t have to. But it’s true that we’re talking about meals that are enormous meals.
Annie Sargent: Right. And they take a long time and all of that. Yes, yes, yes. Of course, a lot of people like nuts at Christmastime, but in my family anyway, nuts are something we just have out, and if you would like some nuts you crack some nuts and you eat some nuts. But you will also find them like the caramelized sort of assortment, nut assortments of all sorts. There’s places like in Alsace, they do des biscuits apéritifs, so little biscuits, little nibbles, savory nibbles like the Brais de Lait, des sables, but savory, you know, like little things like that.
Annie Sargent: Now, for the main meal, you mentioned the pintade, dinde aux marrons is a big one. Chapon is another big one.
Elyse Rivin: A lot of people like chapon. I’ve bought chapon several times. Which is capon in English. It’s actually quite good. It’s very big though. It’s rich. It’s fattier than turkey or pintade, but it’s really good if you have a fairly large number of people, because otherwise you are going to eat it for the rest of the week.
Annie Sargent: Yes.
Elyse Rivin: Like a big turkey. And one of the things that I know from experience in France is that if you want whole turkey you need to wait till Christmastime, because here, since they don’t celebrate Thanksgiving, if you want turkey that’s not just a piece of turkey for Thanksgiving, you have to make a special order weeks ahead of time, because then they have to go and slaughter a turkey somewhere, because they only usually have whole turkeys available around Christmastime.
Elyse Rivin: That’s correct. When I do Thanksgiving with family, I will buy legs and breasts and make those. She doesn’t know that you’re not supposed to do that.
Annie Sargent: I do what I want.
Elyse Rivin: She does… It’s usually very good anyway. And for dessert?
Annie Sargent: No, no, I’m not done. Coquilles Saint-Jacques is a great, great…
Elyse Rivin: Oh. Oh, my God, do I love those.
Annie Sargent: Yes.
Elyse Rivin: Scallops, everybody.
Annie Sargent: Scallops. Yeah, and they’re served in the shell with a cream.
Elyse Rivin: Or cream, and Chardonnay sauce.
Annie Sargent: Chardonnay or Pastis.
Elyse Rivin: Oh, hmm, I’m not big on Pastis, so that’s if you… Yeah.
Annie Sargent: I prefer it with butter and Pastis and a bit of cream at the end.
Elyse Rivin: I like the Chardonnay and the cream combo, that’s the best. The best. That’s just the best.
Annie Sargent: I mean, scallops are delicious.
Elyse Rivin: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And strangely enough, in the last two, three years, they’ve become less expensive.
Annie Sargent: Is that right?
Elyse Rivin: Yes.
Annie Sargent: Why?
Elyse Rivin: Because a number of years ago, they made,what do you call it? A quota, so that they… It’s because they were worried that the fishermen who were fishing, because they’d fish off the English Channel, the Atlantic Coast, they were taking too many out of the sea. So they enforced a law that required them to reduce enormously the number, and that has helped reproduce many, many coquilles Saint-Jacques. So because they’ve been successful in making them proliferate again, now their price has gone down.
Annie Sargent: Oh, very good.
Elyse Rivin: Which is actually better.
Annie Sargent: Another favorite food for Christmastime is the gigot d’agneau. So that’s like a lamb roast. For me, that’s for Easter, but it’s also a favorite of a lot of families. We don’t find fantastic beef in France.
Elyse Rivin: No.
Annie Sargent: So we usually won’t have like the prime rib and things like that that I know are popular in the US. You can’t even buy a prime rib roast in France. I don’t know where you’d go to buy it.
Elyse Rivin: There are two vendors in Victor Hugo Covered Market here in Toulouse, and you can get it from them, but let me tell you that it is astronomical, the price.
Annie Sargent: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Elyse Rivin: Cured beef. Yeah.
Annie Sargent: Okay. Another specialty of Toulouse is the boudin blanc. So that’s like a white sausage. It’s made of a little bit of meat, usually a little bit of chicken, but it’s mostly cream and bread.
Elyse Rivin: It’s very often chicken and it’s gota little bit of mushrooms. I like to get the ones that have morilles, the mushrooms in it. And it’s… Yes, it’s with… It’s mild tasting and it’s not bad. In the wintertime, I get that as a meal, but I don’t usually think of that as something to have at Christmastime.
Annie Sargent: It’s a Christmas Eve thing in my… My mom made it for Christmas Eve. She would cook some apples in butter and serve the boudin blanc.
Elyse Rivin: It’s very good with apples.
Annie Sargent: Yeah, with cooked apples. It’s delicious.
Elyse Rivin: It’s very good that way.
Annie Sargent: Then, something that you can serve with is chataigne, of course. Roasted potatoes are excellent, gratin dauphinois, of course.
Elyse Rivin: If you are in the Alps, especially.
Annie Sargent: If you really want a veggie, you could do cooked endives, which I find kind of bitter a little bit, yeah. Or a Swiss chard, you just use the white part, and you steam those, and then you can just do with the buttery sauce. It’s very nice. Topinambour, of course.
Elyse Rivin: I’ve never used that, ever.
Annie Sargent: Yeah. Well, I mean, it’s a traditional one, but it’s not something I do a lot. It’s the little, what do you call them in English?
Elyse Rivin: Jerusalem artichokes.
Annie Sargent: Yeah, that’s it. That’s it. I like it. At Christmastime, we always have a major cheeseplatter at the end of the meal, of course. The traditional cheese platter will have some sort of Brie, Camembert, du Roquefort, Comté, Chèvre. You know, one of each kind of thing, you will do. And for dessert, for dessert, let’s get to dessert. You have, of course, the buche de Noël.
Elyse Rivin: The famous buche de Noël.
Annie Sargent: Which is lovely but very heavy at the end of a meal like this, and so I tend to prefer mine frozen.
Elyse Rivin: So, just so that everybody knows, a buche means a log, okay? But the buche de Noël, which if you buy it at a baker, it’s a rolled … it’s like a jelly. It would be the cake that you use, for instance, for a jelly roll in the States, which is a light, almost spongy type of cake. But it’s rolled with an infinitely enormous amount of crème pâtissière, and it’s covered with a crème pâtissière that is decorated.
Elyse Rivin: And it can be chestnut-flavored, it can be chocolate-flavored, it can be coffee-flavored. There are infinite varieties. Some of them are absolutely magnificent to look at, but it is extremely rich, and it’s the kind of thing if you have just had a 5,000-course meal. You can look at it and think, "I’m going to have that tomorrow morning for breakfast." You see? So …
Annie Sargent: Yes, and typically in France these days, you have to order your buche de Noël at the bakery. Our bakery, they will start handing out little order forms couple of weeks before Christmas so we can tell them what we want that day. You know, if we want specialty breads to go with the oysters or with the foie gras, which are … there are specialty breads that go with those. So you have to tell them. And then that Christmas morning or Christmas Eve, you will go pick up all your fresh stuff. And they do work, but they will try to close by 11:00 or something.
Elyse Rivin: Exactly.
Annie Sargent: You know, they tell everybody, "Come early," and…
Elyse Rivin: Get them.
Annie Sargent: … get your order and leave. And you prepay, usually. That way, it goes fast. You know, you’ll see the big line, but everybody is going very fast.
Elyse Rivin: But I actually agree with you that the better thing to do, if you really want to have dessert at the end of the meal, is to do the frozen variety, which has become very popular now in, I guess, the last few years, which there are two or three chain stores, I guess you could say, that have very high-quality frozen things. They obviously commission out to various bakers and places like that, and so you can get a beautiful frozen one, which means that it’s not the same exact thing. It’s usually with more of something that’s closer to an ice cream and a frozen sponge cake. And they are absolutely delicious, and they’re much, much lighter, much lighter.
Annie Sargent: Oh, yeah, they’re very good. And if you happen to be in France at Christmastime, and you maybe you’re at a hotel or an Airbnb or something like that, I would highly recommend that you go to Picard, the frozen food store, and you get a variety of things. At Christmastime, they always have a vast selection of specialty Christmas foods, that you can buy for two or four or whatever, and you will have a little bit of everything without having to cook all of these things.
Elyse Rivin: Exactly, yeah.
Annie Sargent: So, that would be my recommendation. The other tradition of the treize desserts, so the thirteen desserts.
Elyse Rivin: Isn’t that … Is that Italian in origin?
Annie Sargent: I don’t know if it’s Italian, but it’s done a lot in Provence area.
Elyse Rivin: Yeah, I think it’s the Provence, Northern Italy thing because there’s a lot of fruits and nuts and things like that.
Annie Sargent: Right, and this we used to do, but we did it on Christmas Eve.
Elyse Rivin: Uh-huh.
Annie Sargent: So, the tradition in my family was that we opened our gifts on Christmas Eve, and Papa Noel would come and put everything in our shoe, of course, not a sock, you heathens. And …
Elyse Rivin: A clean sock.
Annie Sargent: No, a shoe, shoe.
Elyse Rivin: Shoe.
Annie Sargent: You put your shoe by the thing, and you get your packages next to your shoe. And you have to sing for Father Christmas to come.
Elyse Rivin: Oh, boy.
Annie Sargent: If you don’t sing, kids, there’s no Santa coming, okay?
Elyse Rivin: There’s no Santa ever came for me.
Elyse Rivin: And so we would open our gifts early in the evening. Christmas Eve, huh?
Annie Sargent: … and then the kids would go play, and the parents would drink and be merry.
Elyse Rivin: Mm.
Annie Sargent: And then around Christmas, around midnight, sorry, we would do the thirteen desserts.
Elyse Rivin: Oh.
Annie Sargent: So, you just … And you try to time it with the clock that goes ding, ding, ding, which we had one of those. So … There you go.
Elyse Rivin: Okay.
Annie Sargent: And you make a wish for the year or whatever.
Annie Sargent: Galette des Rois does not come until later.
Elyse Rivin: Epiphany.
Annie Sargent: Epiphany, which is January 6th. And people will start selling it anytime now, which is a terrible thing to do. Don’t do it because I will eat it.
Elyse Rivin: Yes.
Annie Sargent: What do you drink with your Christmas meal?
Elyse Rivin: What do I drink?
Annie Sargent: Yeah. You’re not drinking tea, right?
Elyse Rivin: I drink … I’ve switched from champagne, which honestly I am not a connoisseur of, so, I mean, I like champagne, but truthfully, I don’t know enough about it that it makes a difference to me. So I’ve been buying Prosecco.
Annie Sargent: Yes.
Elyse Rivin: I buy Prosecco. I really like to start with Prosecco as an aperitif drink, and then it’s one of the few times of the year when I will actually drink some red because I’m not really a big fan of red wine, and I really love red wines that are full-bodied, but not Bordeaux.
Elyse Rivin: So I’m a big fan of Cotes du Rhone and wines like that. That’s my favorite things.
Annie Sargent: Okay. Okay. Vin Chaud is a huge tradition, but that would be more in the northeast part of France where they do this. They even do jus de pomme chaud. So it’s like apple juice, but they warm it up and they put spices in it, and it’s very good.
Elyse Rivin: Yes. In fact, last year I was in Paris the week before Christmas, and it was very nice because many of the very nice sort of cafe brasseries where you would want to stop at 5:00 to have your, like, tea, they not only had the mulled wine, which I love, but they had mulled cider.
Annie Sargent: Right. Because if you start drinking hot wine in the afternoon, like, it’s a lot. I’ll be in bed by 8:00 PM, which is not the idea.
Elyse Rivin: No. No. But so I thought that was very nice that they started doing that, actually. Yeah.
Annie Sargent: And in a lot of families, after the meal of, because it’s Christmas and everybody’s jolly, you will have some Chartreuse or Armagnac or some sort of strong alcohol at the end to, yeah, to finish you off. And then we all…
Elyse Rivin: Finish you off is exactly right. Take out the Alka-Seltzer afterwards. Yeah.
Annie Sargent: Yes, yes, yes. So there you go. It’s going to be a jolly year, a good time to enjoy friends and family, and let’s not fight over politics, okay?
Elyse Rivin: Let’s not fight, period. Yes.
Annie Sargent: Let’s not fight, period.
Elyse Rivin: Let’s not fight, period.
Annie Sargent: Let’s have a good time.
Elyse Rivin: Yes. And Happy Holidays to everybody!
Annie Sargent: Happy holidays, everybody. And thank you for your support of the podcast.
Elyse Rivin: The Join Us in France travel podcast is written, hosted, and produced by Annie Sargent, and Copyright 2025 by AddictedToFrance. It is released under a Creative Commons attribution, non-commercial, no derivatives license.
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Episode PageCategories: Christmas in France, Off the Beaten Track in France