Table of Contents for this Episode
[00:00:15] Introduction
Annie: This is Join Us in France, episode 554, cinq cent cinquante-quatre.
Annie: Bonjour, I’m Annie Sargent, and Join Us in France is the podcast where we take a conversational journey through the beauty, culture, and flavors of France.
[00:00:32] Today on the podcast
Annie: Today, I bring you a conversation with Catherine McMillan about her incredible journey through the Southwest of France where I live and where I was born.
Annie: Discover hidden gems from medieval villages and picturesque landscapes to local artisans and unique museums. Tune in to learn tips, tales, and inspirations for your next French adventure.
[00:00:55] Podcast supporters
Annie: This podcast runs on chocolatine, caffeine, and the support of lovely humans like you. You book itinerary consults, take my VoiceMap tours, ride shotgun in my electric car, or come to the bootcamp, or even slip me a few euros on Patreon, and I love you for it.
Annie: Want to keep me going and skip the ads? There’s a link for that in the show notes. And head to joinusinfrance.com/boutique to purchase any of my services.
[00:01:25] Magazine segment
Annie: For the magazine part of the podcast after my chat with Catherine today, I’ll discuss the July 14th fireworks in Paris. I’ll be in Carcassonne personally, but they put on a great show in Paris as well. I’ll also mention the Bayeux Tapestry, which is going on loan to England in September, and I’ll also discuss the eye-popping popularity of Notre-Dame de Paris, the cathedral in Paris.
Annie: If you want all the links and the full episode transcripts, go to joinusinfrance.com/episodes. And if you’d like a handy summary of the conversation with all the useful links, subscribe to the newsletter at joinusinfrance.com/newsletter. It’s the best way to stay in the loop.
[00:02:21] Annie and Catherine
Annie: Catherine McMillan, and welcome to Join Us in France.
Catherine: Bonjour, Annie.
Annie: Comment allez-vous?
Catherine: I’m very good, thank you. I’m just very excited to be able to talk about the amazing trip we’ve had.
Annie: Yes, yes. So tell us a little bit about yourself, introduce yourself, and tell us about your trip, when you took it, who you were with, all that good stuff.
Catherine: Okay. My husband retired a few months ago, and we decided to celebrate with a big trip. I’m from France, I was born and raised in France, but I’ve lived in the US for a number of decades now.
Catherine: Obviously, I’ve had an opportunity to go back to France either every year or every other year. My husband is from England, so we also went to England. And I felt that just did not know France well enough. I knew the areas where I grew up and where we had a second home, but I really didn’t know this amazing country that I was reading about on your Facebook group and hearing about on the podcast.
Catherine: And I don’t know if I had FOMO, but I really wanted to see more of it while we still could, and so we took that opportunity. We also had the opportunity to have our son over, and it was great. He’s 26.
Catherine: It was great to be able to show him a part of France that he didn’t know. We tended to vacation in the same area because the family was in, mostly in one location, so…
Annie: Yeah, that’s how it works, yeah.
[00:03:42] Planning the Trip: From Consultation to Gratitude
Catherine: Yeah. So, we decided to go. As you know, we initially had wanted to stay for a year, and then a few months, and then we had a consultation with you. And I really should have started by saying that, I should acknowledge that our trip would’ve been completely different and definitely less gratifying if it hadn’t been for you.
Catherine: For the itinerary consultation, the huge document that you shared, the opportunity to ask questions through the Facebook group.
Catherine: Really, we’re so thankful to you, to Elyse, with whom we had a tour, and to all the people who answered our questions and who participate in the group, so thank you.
Annie: Thank you very much for saying those kind words.
Annie: It’s very natural for me, I mean, that’s how I felt when I moved home from France, from the US, sorry. Home for me is also France, and I lived in the US for 16 years, but before that I had lived in the UK for two, and when I came home, I felt like we had to.
Annie: But I felt like I didn’t know my own country. Like, I felt like a dum-dum. And so, I mean, it’s really funny. You can speak the language perfectly, but there’s a lot you missed in those 18 years. And so I really wanted to rediscover my own country, and that’s one of the reasons why I started the podcast. And so that’s one of the strong impetus behind the podcast, is help others discover France as well. So thank you for those kind words.
Catherine: It works very well.
Annie: All right.
[00:05:16] Trip Timeline and Destinations
Annie: So, what were the dates of your trip?
Catherine: We arrived in very early September of 2024, and we stayed until the middle of December. Out of that time, we spent two weeks between England and Madrid. And one week in Paris. Otherwise, it was all what I call the South West, which is, it’s a little bit, the South West+.
Annie: Yes. Yes. Where are you from originally?
Catherine: I was born in Paris and raised in Nantes, mostly. Grew up in Nantes.
Annie: So you probably have family around Nantes and Paris as well.
Catherine: I have a ton of family in Paris, less and less in Nantes. And in fact, we did not go to Nantes. I have a brother who lives there, and we invited him to come and stay with us in the Pyrenees.
Annie: Okay. All right. Okay.
[00:05:58] Renting a Car
Annie: Did you rent a car?
Catherine: We rented… Well, we actually leased a car. And I read about that, through the podcast, somebody had mentioned that. The broker, I guess, is called Auto TT. And you can rent through Renault or through Citroen, and depends on the length of time you want. We ended up renting through Renault, and for about three months. It was so affordable, I would say. The car is brand new, had 10 kilometers on. It had, of course, a very up-to-date GPS, you know, the cameras and so forth. It was really a wonderful, a wonderful experience. I mean, roadside assistance, which we didn’t need, but was included, was a factor. Full insurance.It was terrific experience, and if you stay longer than two weeks in France, I would highly recommend it. It was great.
Annie: Right. So you called… What was the name of the company you got it through?
Catherine: The broker, and I don’t know if it’s a broker that only works with the US, I should say that we are based in California. It’s called Auto, or A-U-T-O TT. It’s two Ts.
Annie: TT, two Ts? Okay. All right. Oh, interesting. Interesting. Okay. Yes, because I had heard of people doing that directly through Renault. But why not? It probably facilitated some things to have a broker, so…
Catherine: Yes.
Annie: Fantastic. Okay. So you picked up your car in what town?
[00:07:21] Exploring the Southwest of France
Catherine: We started our trip in Bordeaux. For the first week, we did not use a car. So at the end of our stay in Bordeaux, we got a taxi to the airport, picked up our car, which was a really fun experience. Actually, the lady was from Ireland and extremely entertaining. And we drove to the area of Arcachon…. very close.
Catherine: From there, after a few days in Arcachon, we drove to Bayonne in the Basque Country, and stayed there quite a while, I believe about 10 days, then drove to the Central Pyrenees, drove back up to the, broadly the Périgord, Dordogne area, and then came around to the Rodez region and Albi, Toulouse, and then back down to the Pyrenees.
Catherine: The thinking there was that we would enjoy the last few days of warmth in the Dordogne area, and then drive to Mediterranean where it would be warmer. That didn’t work out at all, but that was the thinking.
Annie: Yeah, weather, huh?
Catherine: Yes.
Annie: Yes, yes, yes.
[00:08:21] Walking Through History: Medieval Villages and Cathar Country
Annie: All right, so tell me about your favorite thing. So you made me a list, and the first thing you said is the experience of walking through history. I love that because I think that’s exactly what travel does, travel to France anyway.
Catherine: This was a very profound experience, really. You walk in a tiny medieval village and you see signs that this village has been there for centuries, 700 years, 900 years.
Catherine: And these are not plaques that indicate, so-and-so lived here or, this was the location of the mint under King blah, blah, blah. These are inscriptions, carvings into the stone that date back to that time. This is the beginning of feeling like there have been thousands, hundreds of thousands of people who lived in the places that we visit.
Catherine: And then you go to a museum, everything you see, whether it’s art or historical artifacts, underscores what you see outside.
Catherine: When you go to Béziers, you see all the signs that there were massacres, and from there you go to Toulouse, there’s a very big exhibit on the Cathars. And then we found ourselves in the Pays Cathare, the Cathar country, where we visited, you know, the ruins of a Cathar castle.
Catherine: And it’s just profoundly moving to see all the people who lived here had been subjected to this horrible crusade. I found the fact that history was present at every corner, of course it’s true of every country, but it’s something that is so revered, basically, in France, that I found that very moving.
Annie: Right. You also have to make the effort to learn about the history a little bit, and if you listen to the podcast, you will necessarily hear about some history because we try to inject some of that into everything. But it’s true that putting things into perspective, like, our timeline, our lives are very brief, you know, very… like, so much has happened, it makes you think about things, yeah.
[00:10:31] Discovering Plus Beaux Villages
Annie: So you visited some plus beaux villages wherever you went. What was that like? What did you find?
Catherine: I was going to count how many villages we visited. I think it was in the range of 35 in total because, I think the Southwest is the part of France that has the most. And I will grant that they’re not necessarily all at the same level.
Catherine: However, it gave us a framework for, you know, to guide our travels. Clearly, it’s a marketing opportunity for those villages, but it also speaks to the pride that people have of their environment and their history. And even if, though, there were not that many flowers around because it was, you know, a cold fall, well, at least where we were, everything is… you know, people really pay attention, they care about the place.
Catherine: And it was again, it was very moving to see that people in these villages of under 2,000 people, and sometimes with seven, I think one of the places we visit they have seven people who live there year round. They really… it matters to them.
Annie: Yeah.
Catherine: You know, and seeing their villages continue to thrive, is important to them, and I also found that quite moving.
Annie: Yeah. So do you have, I don’t know, a handful that you can recommend? Like, did you have a favorite among the 35 or so that you saw?
Catherine: That’s a very hard question.
Annie: Yeah. I know.
Catherine: Pujols. Pujols was extraordinary. But it’s very well known already, I believe. So that’s in the Lot-et-Garonne, so not quite in the Périgord, but on the outskirts. The area’s very beautiful, but we arrived in Pujols or the area, the place where we were staying that night was itself beautiful, but maybe two kilometers from the actual village,which is on a hill, and there were not many businesses open because it was off season. There were couple of restaurants. Their place is completely closed to cars, so you have to park on the outside.
Catherine: And you climb up, you have this golden… golden lighting in the village, and you really feel like you’re walking into a postcard. It looked absolutely fabulous. The only life was, you know, a couple of cats. There are a lot of cats, I’ve noticed, in the Southwest … but this sort of golden, golden lighting everywhere on the yellow stone, the ochre stone, it was just magical.
Catherine: And the couple of places that were open, people were so friendly. They were all local, but very welcoming of us.
Catherine: It’s a beautiful, beautiful place. We went back during the day, it was just as beautiful. There’s a place that I will never forget, which is the Larressingle, that’s the little village that has, I think seven residents year round.
Annie: Yeah.
Catherine: And as you know, I think you might have talked about it on the podcast.
Annie: Yeah, it’s in the Gers.
Catherine: That’s right. Oh, the Gers! I listened to that podcast and thanks to you I visited,I think pretty much all the areas that you mentioned. There’s a bookstore in La Ressingle, which will… I don’t think I will ever forget that spot.
Catherine: It’s housed in a, I don’t know, 13 or 14th century house. And on the second floor, there’s that bookstore which makes you feel like you just want to snuggle up into the old armchairs that they have and read, you know, the whole day. The lady who was working at the store told me she’s actually a volunteer. It’s a nonprofit bookstore but they do have a buyer who does a very good job of… and of course, we bought some books.
Catherine: And then you talk to this person and then she tells you about this other village, and this other village, and this museum. And just talking to people, I mean, it really opens up so many opportunities that you might not be aware of otherwise. That was another huge asset.
Annie: You know, if you show up somewhere with open ears, and you can talk to people, it’s much better than having a book. I mean, you know, the guidebooks are great, but talk to people, it’s better, if you can. Not everybody is up to it, but clearly you’re French so that’s fine.
Catherine: Yes, I didn’t have a language obstacle.
Annie: Yeah.
Catherine: But it’s very true, and people are just so happy to help. We found that everywhere. And you ask them, you know, things outside of their… You know, I wasn’t asking about the books, it’s like what else should we visit?
Catherine: And they’re only too happy to tell you, you know, because they’re proud of where they’re from. Another village, in fact, she recommended was Fourcès, and I know you talked about it on the podcast. Again, another magical spot with, it’s a bastille town with this circular plaza surrounded by, of course, stone arcades, and planted in the middle with a lot of plane trees. You have to park outside so you just walk into this absolutely enchanting plaza.Again, it’s absolutely remarkable.
Annie: Yeah, yeah, those are beautiful places and, you know, just go see them.
Annie: This is not the sort of place where there’s a museum to visit or whatever. It’s just a place where you go, you look, you walk, you have a meal perhaps or a coffee or something, and you talk to people if that’s something you enjoy doing, and learn a little bit about the history and move on to the next place. These are probably places where you spend two hours at most.
Catherine: Yes, if that, if that, exactly. I was occasionally posting pictures on the Facebook group, there was somebody who made a comment about, oh, the… we were seeing so many things in one day, that would be exhausting to them. But you have to realize they’re very close to each other.
Annie: Yeah.
Catherine: A lot of them are very close to each other and… or they’re grouped, and so it’s not… it’s really not very, very demanding.
Annie: Right.
Catherine: It’s easy to park, they’re all very small, you park typically on the outside, walk around. If the tourist office was open, we would go in and they always had a walking map.
Annie: Yeah.
Catherine: And that’s what we did. It’s usually, you know, four or five blocks in either direction, there’s really not much there.
Annie: And typically on the walking map they will have like, “Number one is the house of so-and-so,” and, “Number two is the church of such and such,” and…
Catherine: That’s right.
Annie: That really helps because it gives you a little bit of context, you get to see the important years when this place was developed and, yeah, it’s a very, Fourcès is a very… I mean, I like the Gers, it’s a…Sometimes, Elyse and I are still working out the details of the nextbootcamp and we’re thinking, “Okay, do we take people to the Gers?” It takes a while to drive there. So for the afternoon it’s kind of… from Toulouse it might be a bit tight, but I would really like to take more people to those areas and just do three or four in a row. They’re very close, like you mentioned, so…
Catherine: They’re very close.
[00:17:10] Musée du Foie Gras
Catherine: And there’s a Musée du Foie Gras there that we visited as well.
Annie: Aha. Aha.
Catherine: Which… A wonderful ‘dégustation’.
Annie: Now you’re talking. Now, we didn’t go to that one but when we went everything was closed. Elyse and I have a knack… We’re going tomorrow to visit a couple of places and we have a knack for showing up places that they’re, “Ah, it’s closed today. Oh well.” It’s okay, we can always go back.
[00:17:36] Unique Experiences: Craftsmen and Local Artisans
Annie: All right, so visiting and observing craftsmen at work making knives, making gloves, weaving Basque fabrics. Tell us more.
Catherine: Those are, again, experiences that we had that were completely free that we didn’t know we were going to do. We ended up at a fantastic restaurant and I noticed and asked about the knives that were at the restaurant. And they said, “Oh, these are…” Because they looked like Laguiole knives, which a lot of your listeners would know about. They weren’t. They didn’t have the B.
Annie: Yeah.
Catherine: And so I asked about the knives and she said, “Oh, they’re made right here.” I thought they were absolutely beautiful. They’re made right here in the village.
Catherine: And this is a tiny, tiny village in the Sauveterre-de-Rouergue. And the knife place, the cutlery, I’m not sure how you call these places, was open and the artisan was at work and there were two of them.
Catherine: There was one guy who was currently working on a blade. And a lot of the notches typically on the top, the back of the blade are the signature of the person who is actually making the knife. And the other person was working on the handle. And it was a very small operation, but had apparently very stellar reputation.
Catherine: And another guy who walked in as we were there was the guy who provides the antlers. And so we were able to talk to him, say, “How do you know that this antler is going to be good?” You know. “is it related to the age of the antler?” So, you know, and I realized that because I’m French speaking, I can have these conversations that are a little bit more in depth.
Annie: Right.
Catherine: But it still speaks to the fact that people want to talk about what they do, it’s very easy for them to share their passion, they’re not trying to sell you, we did buy a knife, but there are lots of places where we weren’t buying anything and they just want to talk about it. They’re just so grateful for the questions.
Annie: Yeah. In a place like that, you would want to buy one because it’s going to remind you forever about this visit. So of course you would buy one. Yeah. Yeah. That’s great.
Catherine: Exactly.
Annie:
[00:19:39] Gloves Making Experience
Annie: You went to Millau as well and you watched people make gloves.
Catherine: That’s right. So Millau is very well-known, probably at least throughout Europe for glove-making and we had decided to visit. There were only two or three places that we had found out about. One was absolutely spectacular. They had a little museum of gloves, about glove-making. The gloves are made on the top floor. It was a modern building, but, you know, beautifully done as they know how to balance modern and old. The gloves were displayed in glass cases, but they were gloves for… I mean, for the Oscars.
Catherine: I mean, they were gloves that do not fit my lifestyle in California. But they were absolutely… the workmanship was exquisite. I could have tried them, but I didn’t even want to, you know, touch them. They’re just works of art.
Catherine: My husband got sized for gloves, but we decided this is definitely above our lifestyle and our price range.
Catherine: So we went to another one and the lady was actually on the sidewalk. We walk and she follows us and I said, “I have some questions.” And she just said “your husband is an eight and a half, you’re a seven and a half.” That was the first thing out of her mouth. And so, we ended up staying. She was absolutely right about the sizes. The fact that people are so knowledgeable, we ended up practically, you know, wanting to have dinner with her. It was just, again, she just wanted to share everything, and was able to customize, you know… “Oh, you live in California,” da, da, da, da. You know, just customize our purchase to what we wanted, to our lifestyle. It was just another amazing experience.
Annie: Wonderful. Yeah.
[00:21:20] Weaving Basque Fabrics
Annie: And then weaving Basque fabrics. Okay, so Basque fabrics are very, very famous in France. They’re very colorful and you can spot them, like, if you have a throw or, I don’t know, pillows or something, they really shine and they’re beautiful. So tell me about this experience.
Catherine: So that was an experience where we also learned a lot and we were able to, there’s a store nearby in Carmel, California, that is called Jean de Luz and the owner, or the person who started that business is I believe from Bayonne. And so I already knew about the Basque fabrics, but I wanted to specifically, of course, get some more there. We ended up going to Ascain,there’s a particular store that we were interested in visiting and they have an exhibit.
Catherine: And this person, even though it wasn’t officially a tour, she did take us to the back and she showed us how everything operated. Again, it’s low season, there’s not many other people and she just goes through the trouble of, you know, taking us back and showing us how everything works and talking to us about the Basque fabrics and how the seven stripes refer to the seven Basque provinces. The width of the stripes refer to, I forget the… I think the… how prosperous the family is. And something else that is, identifies the village.
Annie: So it’s like a tartan but Basque style.
Catherine: Yes, exactly. Yeah. And originally for oxen, of course, and not for people. So yeah, it was just, again, an opportunity to learn a lot of facts that you wouldn’t otherwise know about, including if you’re French.
Annie: Yeah. In the Basque Country, I can’t remember which Plus Beaux Villages it’s in, but in one of the Plus Beaux Villages of Basque Country, there is a place where they make espadrille, the shoes. And you can visit that, but I don’t remember what is called.
Catherine: Yes, that’s right. So I think it’s really very omnipresent in Saint-Jean-de-Luz, but I don’t… remember either.
Annie: Right. Right.
Catherine: But I knew that I wasn’t going to buy espadrille. I’m not quite comfortable enough for… but…
Annie: Yes, yes, it’s very basic. You have to be 18 to wear those things, I think.
Catherine: That’s right.
Annie: It is very for young people.
(Mid-roll ad spot)
Annie: All right, so let’s see.
[00:23:31] Unusual and Lesser-Known Museums
Annie: Next thing you list is exploring many of the more unusual, out-of-the-way, lesser-known museums. So tell us about some of the weird museums you visited. Lots of people like to do this, by the way. It’s a very common question that people ask me is: ‘Is there some kind of fun museum in this area’?
[00:23:49] Museum of the Oyster
Catherine: A lot of places we found had these little out-of-the-way museums, and sometimes it’s because they really don’t have that much else. And for instance, when we were in the Arcachon area, we were staying in a tiny place called Gujan-Mestras that has, I believe, seven little fishing areas, fishing ports. And in one of them, there’s this Museum of the Oyster. The place, it’s maybe two… has two rooms, but you can have a really, really good visit. And it’s in French, but there’s a little movie, 15 minutes or so, that has subtitles in English. This was important for my husband who is not quite bilingual. And you just learn so much.
Annie: Yeah.
Catherine:
[00:24:30] Musee du Tabac
Catherine: The other things, I didn’t even know that we ever grew tobacco. I think it will not be news to everybody, but it was news to me. And in Bergerac, we found out in the Musee du Tabac that they started to grow tobacco especially, and to develop it on a larger scale, when the grapes were being attacked, had been attacked and destroyed by phylloxera.
Annie: Yeah. Yes, yes, yeah. Phylloxera.
Catherine: And then we took a tour on a boat, and they were pointing out these very steep roofs, in the Bergerac area that were used also to install racks where they could dry the tobacco leaves, drape the tobacco leaves over the racks and let them dry because there was a lot of free flow of air, but being protected from the rain.
Catherine: All these little things that you just learn so much.
[00:25:18] The Musee de la Mer in Sete
Catherine: Then I saw a museum, or we saw a museum, that you had talked about, the Musee de la Mer in Sete where we saw the jousting. There’s an exhibit on jousting, which was just hysterical and very, very fun to learn about. The main part of the museum has… I don’t know… I don’t know how many models of boats. It’s a beautiful little place. Again, it takes you maybe an hour to go through that, but, you know, just some wonderful opportunities.
Annie: And it is true that most of these museums are in French. Some places they can hand you a card that’s been translated or something, but these are best for people who speak French or don’t mind if they don’t understand everything, you know? It’s still worth looking at the displays even if you don’t read every word. I mean, most museums we go to, we don’t read everything, do we?
Catherine: Right. Right. Right.
[00:26:07] Vézuna Museum
Catherine: I did include in that list one that is definitely in English as well and has a, I think an audio guide even, and it’s not a small museum. That’s the Vézuna Museum. I mentioned it because not many people go to Périgueux, including not many French people go to Périgueux.
Annie: Yep.
Catherine: It’s a little bit of the sort of step-sister of the better-known towns in the Périgord. That museum, I thank you so much for that episode. It was absolutely remarkable. And again, it’s so well done. It’s such a beautiful space. This is a space, as a reminder, where you can walk over the remains of a Roman villa. But the architect has basically built an umbrella over this Roman villa and it’s really exhibited beautifully.
Annie: Yeah. Yeah, it’s a beautiful place. And this one is modern and it has translations everywhere and audio guides and everything else that you might want.
Annie: Let’s see. What else? What else? So this one I don’t know anything about.
[00:27:04] La Maison Forte de Reignac: A Must-See Historical Site
Annie: You visited the furnished home of La Maison Forte de Reignac. It’s embedded in the rock?
Catherine: Yes.
Annie: I don’t know anything about this.
Catherine: This is a place that is an absolute must-see. If you do nothing else around Sarlat, you have to see the Maison Forte de Reignac. And in fact, I have to give credit to my husband after I complained bitterly that I was doing all the planning. He said, “How about this place?” It was such a win. An absolutely extraordinary place. There’s also very easy parking.
Catherine: It’s just a few minutes, a few kilometers from Sarlat, and it’s a place that has been used for…… I forget how many years, 20,000 years, has been occupied for 20,000 years, initially as a prehistoric, you know, a prehistoric lodging, you know, the troglodyte, I guess, lodging. And over the centuries, a castle was built into it.
Catherine: It was only destroyed, I believe, during the Wars of Religion, in the 16th century and it was used continuously during that time. It’s furnished, so depending on what, there are different levels in the rock. So underground, you have an exhibit of prehistoric art with the most exquisite carvings, almost like scrimshaw, you know. Again, so moving to me. I can’t… I mean, I can barely doodle a shape of a house. I’m terrible at art, but I can definitely appreciate how exquisite everything was.
Catherine: And then you go up and every level it goes up in sort of style. It’s furnished. Furnished, I guess, I mean, the furnishings differ a little bit from one room to another. But there are a lot of fireplaces.
[00:28:43] Exploring a Historic Maison Forte
Catherine: They have fires burning in the fireplaces…
Annie: Oh.
Catherine: … which just gives it this wonderful smell, and there’s some music or some sounds that are being piped in. It feels like it’s a lived-in space. You walk into this gorgeous living room, or I don’t know what they would call it, but the main room, during the 15ths, 14th centuries, furnished, beautiful fireplace and the ceiling is the rock.
Annie: Huh.
Catherine: The ceiling and one of the walls is the rock, so it’s built into the rock. It’s absolutely extraordinary.
Annie: And it’s a Maison forte, so they must have used it as some sort of…
Catherine: Fortress.
Annie: Yeah, it’s a fortress, yeah.
Catherine: Yes. It was lived in, but it was also… it had different purposes over the centuries.
Annie: Yeah.
Catherine: But that’s also where, I forget which side took refuge, but it was destroyed during the Wars of Religion. And no one lives in there now.
Annie: Of course.
Catherine: But it’s really beautifully done.
Annie: Oh, very nice. Very nice.
[00:29:42] Discovering the Charm of Bayonne
Annie: You loved the Pays Basque. Do tell.
Catherine: I did. I did. When you’re in the US, I only ever hear about the Basque Country as being, you know, from Spain. But of course, being French, I knew that those three provinces in France, quite very different really from the Spanish side. We did go a little bit in Spain as well. we were based in Bayonne. We absolutely adored Bayonne. Bayonne has, of course, incredible history. The cathedral is another space I will never forget. It’s absolutely glorious. It’s very tall. The ceilings, there are individual sections of ceiling that are painted red and green, so the colors of the Basque flag. The paintings are extraordinary. There was also a mass that was being said and by, I think there were nuns on a side chapel, so they were singing. It was another magical experience. We actually went back several times, because the experience was so powerful. It’s a beautiful place.
[00:30:43] The Vibrant Les Halles Markets
Catherine: Another incredible thing about Bayonne was the Les Halles. So for those, or for your listeners who don’t know, Les Halles are sort of typically a covered market where you can buy fruit and vegetables. But in many places, they also have sort of deli stands or, people who prepare food and you can… sometimes, in Narbonne, we had, you know, a full meal. But a lot of times, you can have, you know, what would be equivalent of pintxos or tapas and stand around a tall little table, with a glass of wine and your little snacks and you just chat with all the people around you and it’s so fun. We went there a number of times. It was just absolutely so fun.
Annie: If there’s a Halle where you are staying, and by the way, somebody … I was, doing an itinerary with somebody who asked me, because I kept saying Les Halles and she says, “Isn’t it Les Halles?” I’m like, no, sweetheart.” “No.”
Catherine: Yes, yes, yes.
Annie: That one, no. Anyway,if there’s a Halle in the area, you must go. It’s… they are fantastic. In Toulouse, it’s still very much selling food. But in many places, they have integrated small restaurants and small places where you can eat. It’s very fun. And in Béziers, it’s mostly places where you can eat. You can buy a few charcuterie, charcutier, boucher thing, but one or two, you know, not a ton of them. It doesn’t matter where you are, if there is one, go.
Catherine: Absolutely. Yeah. Definitely second that opinion.
[00:32:11] Adventures in the Basque Country
Catherine: And of course, using Bayonne… so Bayonne itself is fantastic. It has a beautiful Basque museum. But it’s also a great base to explore the coast and to explore the villages in the mountain. So including where they make a lot of the Basque, you know, fabrics, but also the Piment d’Espelette, this sort of red powder, which originally I found out that originally this red pepper came from Mexico. The roads are absolutely beautiful, very well maintained, as they are at, we found, in virtually all of France, extremely well maintained. So it’s easy. They may be narrow, but it’s very easy to get around these small villages.
Catherine: The tourist offices are sometimes, and in particular, in Espelette, housed in the most incredible spaces, in this case an old castle. So you walk in, and on this floor you have the tourist office, on this other floor you have that city hall and the council chambers. You open the doors and it’s just such a wonderful experience. We love the Basque Country. We were in one particular village, we had lunch in a particular place. The owner, eventually became quite chatty. And I noticed that they had a court of jeu de paume-
Annie: Oh.
Catherine: … indoor court. I believe it may be the only one that’s left. I forget what he told us exactly. I asked if I could peek and whether I was going to be hit because I had seen the size of those balls. And he… of course, he went and showed me around and explained the rules. Told me that all these… you know, it’s sort of a version of pelote basque, and that it was still very, very active. He also explained that they were the real Basques and the Basques from the coast were not real Basques but they were their nice cousins.
Annie: Of course, they are. Of course, they are. I love that. Yeah. Yeah, Okay. I have this question, I don’t want to forget this question because this is important. If you were to move back to France, would you move to the Basque Country?
Catherine: Probably not, for one thing, I don’t have any family there. And I was told by someone whose wife is from that part of the Basque Country, that people love you when you’re a tourist, and not necessarily for the money, just because they know that you’re leaving, and that they might not, might not be as open if you were to move in.
Annie: Okay.
Catherine: Because I think… I think there’s a feeling that all the people who come from the outside, including French people, dilute you know, a little bit of the Basque culture.
Annie: The identity, yeah. Interesting. Well, that’s how they kept their language separate, was by just not mixing with the rest of the people around them, so maybe… probably there’s a bit of that going on. Huh.
[00:34:56] Aveyron
Annie: You enjoyed the Aveyron area as well.
Catherine: I did, and… but I don’t want to talk about it anymore. You had a fabulous guest last, I think the most recent episode. And he was incredible. It made me want to go back, but also, it’s like, “Shh, don’t tell. It’s so beautiful. I kind of want to keep it.”
Annie: Yeah, the Aveyron is amazing.
Catherine: Except for Rodez, there’s… and maybe, was it Castres? Which we did not visit, but there’s not an amazing tourist infrastructure. So I think it’s far from becoming like a major tourist Mecca. But if you stay in Rodez, which had been your recommendation,that’s a really incredible, incredible place that you can visit all those wonderful villages from, yes.
[00:35:39] booking.com
Annie: Did you mostly stay in Airbnbs or, hotels or how did you…?
Catherine: We found our… we were looking for apartments, because we were typically staying for more than… anywhere between 4 and 10 nights. So hotels would be out of our price range. So we booked through booking.com for the most part, unless we had cause to be somewhere for one night to two nights because we had to catch a plane or a train the next day. Otherwise, we were staying for the most part in the center as much as possible.
Catherine: So we had some criteria, which were important to us. You know, there needed to be a washing machine. Dryers would have been great, but that’s something that is still pretty rare.
Annie: Yeah. And it was a rainy fall, so it would have been good, yeah.
Catherine: It would have been good. And we wanted to have some cooking facilities. Those were not even either. Sometimes there was just a hot plate. But as long as we could make coffee, at least you’re never going to go hungry in France. And that was about it. And we needed to have, you know, parking available. We could walk, you know, with our luggage but not too far.
Annie: Overall, was that a good experience doing everything through Booking?
Catherine: Yes, everything was great. Everything came through, I would say we made a mistake in Perigueux in particular. I didn’t ask… I hadn’t asked about parking, where the parking was, and they didn’t volunteer that information, which I think was probably a bit of a miss on both sides.
[00:37:03] Find Out Where You Can Park Before You Get There
Catherine: I did not realize and I was doing the direction, my husband was driving, and we found ourselves driving through a pedestrian area. The shopkeepers were not enthralled when we were driving through and snagging the clothes on the clothes racks outside the store. It was just terrible. You know, we were sort of hiding, I was calling the landlord and… anyway, they had a hard time directing us to an actual parking garage. So that’s one thing I would recommend is definitely find out where you can park before you get there.
Annie: Exactly. When… if you’re driving…… due diligence. Always decide I’m going to be parking, you know, instead of doing city center of this town, just say “take me to this parking lot,” or underground parking,
Annie: if you’re going to a small village, most of the time it’s self-explanatory. They will have a sign that says, “Park over here.” A tiny village, there’s no need to do research unless you’re in the Provence area, and then maybe. But even there, they will direct you. But if you’re going to a city like Perigueux, Toulouse, Rodez, places like that, you really need to know where you’re going to park.
Catherine: So I would definitely… Or, and you can ask your host as well.
Annie: Yes, definitely. Yeah, they can tell you, you just need to ask. Okay, we need to hurry it up because we’ve been talking a long time.
[00:38:16] Hiking in the Hautes-Pyrénées
Annie: But I want to hear about your hiking in the Hautes-Pyrénées. You went to the Cirque de Gavarnie, which I’ve been to as well, and the Lac de Payolle. I don’t know that one.
Catherine: Cirque de Gavarnie, well, you’ve been there, so it’s absolutely beautiful. It’s this amphitheater of sheer rock face with waterfalls falling down. There have been a ton of rain a few weeks before we arrived, therefore there were places that were closed, hikes that we wanted to do that we couldn’t do because bridges had fallen through and, you know.
Catherine: And you could see, in fact, even on the walk to the Cirque de Gavarnie, that the path was quite damaged from the floods that they had just had. But it’s a spectacular experience. And you walked through the cows with cowbells, and it’s just really fun.
Annie: And it’s a fairly easy hike. I mean, it’s not very steep. It’s gentle, like, hill, quite easy to do. This is a place where the people in Toulouse take their young kids even. You know, if you want to do a hike with young kids, it’s fine. They can handle it.
Catherine: Yeah, so that’s very easy. If you’re going to go beyond the hotel, you might want to have better shoes with thicker soles. It gets more rocky. And maybe even hiking poles. I mean, kids don’t need them but adults sometimes need them. Other than that, yes, it’s very easy, it’s pretty flat.
Annie: And then the Lac de Payolle?
Catherine: Lac de Payolle Yes, it’s an artificial lake, which is fed by three mountain streams, so its people use it for fishing, but it’s also known as Little Canada because you have the beautiful blue waters of the lake and it’s surrounded by these evergreens. It’s absolutely beautiful. Beautiful spots. Again, it’s completely flat because you walk around the lake. So it wasn’t really hiking, but there’s a lot, I think, more hiking and uh, VTT and, and, you know, other activities.
Annie: I’ll remind everybody that to find great hikings, biking, all sorts of physical activities, go to Komoot, K-O-M-O-O-T, and just enter the name of the village and it will show you all sorts of things you can do in the area.
[00:40:25] A Visit to Notre-Dame
Annie: All right, you went to Notre-Dame, and that’s the last thing we’re going to talk about. Yeah. Tell me about it.
Catherine: So Notre-Dame, we had downloaded the app. We knew that we were… We didn’t plan it but we found out that we were going to be there when it reopened, and we were unable to get tickets because we were there the day after or we were there in, at the time that it reopened. But we just decided to line up and even on sort of day two or three of its reopening, we were able to get in after 35 minutes, spent mostly chatting with everybody around us. And it was again, a transformative experience because they had… And we were raised Catholic but we’re, you know, no longer practice. But you find yourself in this absolutely stunning space. By then, everybody had read about, you know, the renovations and so forth.
Catherine: They also had… They had just brought back The Crown of Thorns, which is rumored to be the true Crown of Thorns that King… I think it was King Henry II, now I forget, who had bought it from the Byzantine emperor.
Catherine: And it had been the first thing that they saved when the fire broke out, that was the main concern. So it had been housed at the Louvre. So they had just brought it back and it was open for everyone to see. And it was guarded by people in long white robes and red stripes, and it was very formal and very, extremely moving, I would say.
Annie: Yeah, it’s a great experience. And by now… I was just there last week, so we’re recording this in January. It won’t come out for several months, the security at Notre-Dame has improved greatly because they have bought new kind of security portals, whatever you call these things, and you can pretty much walk straight through. There’s no more stop, open your bag, or anything like that. If you have any sort of metal with you, you’ll ding and then they will search you. But most people walk through without any trouble. So it’s pretty fast, really. It’s worth going, I think.
[00:42:20] Reflections on Traveling in France
Annie: All right, I ask these questions to all the Americans so we’ll ask you as well. Did you learn anything about France on this trip? And did you make any mistakes?
Catherine: I learned everything about France. I learned everything because everything was new. I hadn’t been to any other places except Bordeaux. I hadn’t been to any of those places. The main lesson to me was that even though we spent 15 or 16 weeks essentially in one region, we never ran out of things to do, never ran out of things to see. Where every day was different and to think of, you know, just to remind ourselves to be open to everything. When you talk to people, it opens up so many new opportunities. So that was really a good reminder. It’s easy for me to chat with people, but then I, you really have to be deliberate about it because it just opens up a whole world that is, you know, not necessarily hidden, but not maybe as obvious as what you might see in the books.
Annie: And, you know, there are lots of French people who welcome the opportunity to practice their English. And so if you are a chatty person, you always start with Bonjour of course. But besides that, you don’t need to know that much French. Most people will, they might suffer, you might have to suffer through their English, but that’s fine. If you’re the sort of person who is good at engaging others in conversation, which clearly you are, then it really makes your trip much better. And I’m also a chatty person. I go somewhere and I’ll talk to whoever’s there. Like, it’s not difficult. You just…
Catherine: No, no, because people want to talk. They want to tell you.
Annie: Sure.
[00:43:59] Mistakes to Avoid
Catherine: Yeah. They want to talk. So, did you make any mistakes on this trip? Is there something that you didn’t think was any good that you are like, ah, should, we shouldn’t have done that?
Catherine: Well, definitely the parking, not being as diligent as I should have been in terms of asking about the parking was a bit of an issue.
Catherine: And for us, three months ended up being a little bit long. Not because we ever ran out of things to do, but because you start, you know, missing your home or, it gets a bit much to, ugh, you know, I had to plan on what day I was going to do the laundry because there was no dryer, and the weather was cool. It’s all little practical things. Having to relearn a space, having to find out where the, you know, where all the outlets are for all your electronic gear, and change that every four days or however often you move. That got a little bit…
Annie: Yeah, it’s a challenge.
Annie: I would do it again in a heartbeat, however, although the next time might not be three months also because you worry about your house, you know, back home, your plants and so forth. I think if you can do two months, that’s probably the sweet spot to visit a place if you…
Catherine: I agree. That’s what we decided at the end.
[00:45:05] Phone access
Catherine: Yeah. Let’s see. Oh, phone access. Well, we struggled and I wish, yeah, I wish that we had had your previous guest on because we, we sort of muddled through and it didn’t work great for us. We ended up buying a monthly plan from our American carrier. It wasn’t too bad. I really wanted to have access. I didn’t want to be limited to, yeah, we needed the GPS, we needed, we just needed it. So, we bit the bullet.
Annie: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you tried both Bouygues and Orange, but it wasn’t, you didn’t like it.
Catherine: I don’t know if we got the right information, but they told me that, you know, one was convinced that my phone, which is an iPhone, I don’t know, 14 I think, was convinced that I could buy a physical card. And I told him, no there’s no physical card in this… And he sort of grabbed the phone out of my hand and then saw that there’s no space for a physical card. And they couldn’t sell you a monthly or electronic, an e-card. So, I don’t know, it just became, I wasn’t sure even though we spoke the same language, but I wasn’t sure that I was communicating properly and…
Annie: Yeah. And sometimes the fact that you speak the same language is a problem because they assume that you are local when you’re not, you’re a visitor. Like, you know? There were times when we first moved back to France where I would ask my husband to talk because he still had a bit of an accent in French. And so people immediately recognized him as a visitor and that was fine. Whereas if I spoke, they were like, “Well, why are you asking stupid questions like that? You live here, don’t you?”
Catherine: That’s right. Yeah. They make more of an effort for, to explain to… Yeah. Yeah. That’s true.
[00:46:42] The trains in the area
Annie: You talk about assuming that the trains ran the way I did when I lived there. Uh-oh, you had a problem with the trains?
Catherine: It wasn’t a problem per se. Operationally, they were very good. And I didn’t find them extremely expensive. They were more expensive than they had been over time, but that was fine. The issue that we had is that they’re not on time anymore. It used to be that the TGV was like, you know, it left at the minute it said it was going to leave, it arrived at the minute … and it’s wasn’t the case, you know? In one case, of course, when our son arrived, there was, you know, a lot of snow in Paris, so he was delayed, but it was complicated for him to re-route. He did re-route, but you know, couldn’t get reimbursed. And then same with us when we left, perfect weather, but they had trouble connecting the trains, they had to find another driver. So we were 35 minutes late, which, you know, those things did not happen, but… Not terrible. Not terrible. We had the time, so…
Annie: All right. Oh, so you didn’t love Lourdes. Yeah, most people don’t actually.
Catherine: Did not love Lourdes. I had been there as a child so that goes back quite a while. And it was raining too so that didn’t help but the sort of the religious part is very crowded and, you know, moving if you’re into that sort of thing. The town itself is so commercialized, it’s just horrible. So did not, yeah, was not a fan.
Annie: Yeah. No, no charm. Lourdes is not a charming town, it just isn’t. It’s a town where you go if you want to participate in the religious stuff, but that’s about it. The other thing you say is you would not go back to the Champollion Museum in Figeac because it was too kind of narrow.
Catherine: It was very arcane. And I do like sort of out-of-the-way museum. And we had a little back and forth with somebody on the Facebook group who loved it. And I thought she must be really smart because it was really hard for me to understand most of that. I learned more about Champollion himself and less about the language because I thought this is why I need a guided tour. The knowledge was quite arcane. There was a school group and I thought I should tag along so that teacher could teach me a few things.
Annie: So people told you not to go to Villeneuve-sur-Lot, but you went on two different occasions and you liked it. Oh, no, you were not completely comfortable.
Catherine: No, we were not completely comfortable. And I don’t know what the, sort of the geography of Villeneuve-sur-Lot but we had to find a big supermarket to try and find a printing shop. We were definitely the outsiders and were looked at as outsiders. It felt a little bit… I was, we were in no danger, I was notafraid but it definitely felt like we didn’t belong.
Annie: Haven’t been to Villeneuve-sur-Lot. I can’t say much about it.
Catherine: We heard from someone else who said that they were actually turned away from a place by people there, so…
Annie: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Yeah. Not okay. You didn’t like brasserie in large cities because they’re all the same. That’s very true though. Yeah.
Catherine: Oh, yeah. That was quite disappointing. I mean, you expect a brasserie to have about the same menu, but now it was menu that was expanded in a way but was the same in every city and it didn’t feel like it had been made with love just fresh and so forth. And so, I felt generally, I liked to have the, you know, certain dishes in that region and sort of the French way and it, I don’t want to have magret canard in Brittany and crêpes in Provence or those things.
Annie: Yeah. That makes sense. That makes sense. Oh, and the last thing is get used to single-gender toilets. Yes. We have them a lot now. So there’s one bathroom and it’s whoever needs the bathroom.
Catherine: Yes. And I have to say, I was quite, you know, a little bit nervous because when I was growing up, toilets in cafes were, you know, sometimes what they used to call the Turkish toilets, and generally not the most hygienic. Well, they might have been hygenic but very dirty. I was pleasantly surprised for the most part that in establishments they were clean. Sometimes the public toilets in small villages and whatever, clearly were not attended to in, you know, especially off season.
Annie: Yeah.
Catherine: … you win some, you lose some.
Annie: Wonderful. Okay.
[00:50:41] Final Thoughts and Farewell
Annie: You wrote some very nice notes, so I will put them out as guest notes so people can look at many details that you share that are really interesting. You recommend restaurants and things like that that we didn’t get to because we only have, you know, a certain amount of time.
Annie: But thank you so much for sharing all of that, Catherine. I love talking to you. I’m sure people will love listening to you. And thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
Catherine: Thank you, Annie. It was an absolute pleasure and I’m very happy to share my limited knowledge of the Southwest.
Annie: Come back to France anytime.
Catherine: I will do. All right. Bye-bye.
Annie: Merci beaucoup. Au revoir.
Catherine: Au revoir, Annie. Au revoir.
[00:51:29] Thank you Patrons
Annie: Again, I want to thank my patrons for giving back and supporting this show. Patrons get several exclusive rewards for doing so. You can see them at patreon.com/joinus.
Annie: A special shout-out this week to my new JOIN US in France champions, Larry Rosenbloom, Annie Andrews, and Susan.
Annie: And thank you, Kitty Long, Rowena, and Mike August for upgrading your pledges. Would you join them, too? You can do it for as little as $3 a month, but if you can afford it, I would love to have you pledge more so you can have access to more of the rewards. And to support Elyse, go to patreon.com/elysart.
Annie: This week, Elyse and I both published our casual convo for the month of July. This is a chat we have. It’s usually half an hour to 45 minutes or something, where we just chitchat. There’s just no agenda. We talk, chat about whatever comes into our mind and we always get great feedback about that from patrons, which is lovely.
[00:52:36] VoiceMap Reviews
Annie: Here’s some VoiceMap reviews of my Paris VoiceMap tours. Somebody says, “I love all of Annie’s tours in France, but this one is the best.” “I had to split it over a few days because of the length,” Oh, that’s probably Latin Quarter then.
Annie: “And candidly, how distracted we got with all the great neighborhoods. Even though I’ve been in the neighborhood many times and lived here for a bit, I still learned so much. Thank you, Annie.” Wow, that’s wonderful to know. Thank you.
Annie: VoiceMap is like taking a private tour with a human guide who lets you stop whenever you want, picks up again at your leisure, you start at whatever time on whatever day. It is very, very nice, and you cannot do that with any live tour guides.
[00:53:18] Podcast Listeners Discounts for VoiceMap Tours
Annie: And podcast listeners get a big discount for buying these tours from my website.
Annie: Now, it’s best for me as well, I’m going to tell you, because I get to keep more of the money you pay instead of giving it to Apple or Google. To use your tour code once you’ve purchased them on my website on joinusinfrance.com/ boutique, tap tour codes at the bottom right, enter the code and download the tour. You don’t have to use your credit immediately, it just sits in your account until you’re ready. If you want to use it on a different device, you can log in to your accounts from anywhere.
Annie: You can also listen in virtual playback from anywhere you are. It’s perfect if Paris is not in your immediate plans. You can take me in your pocket with VoiceMap.
Annie: If you’re planning a trip to France and you want expert help, you can hire me as your itinerary consultant. It’s kind of busy this season, but you can still find a slot unless you’re leaving tomorrow and then I can’t help you. I usually have openings within a month or so. But don’t wait too much, and again, that’s at joinusinfrance.com/boutique.
[00:54:21] Fireworks in Paris
Annie: And now let’s talk about the fireworks in Paris. They’re going to take place around the Eiffel Tower starting at 11:00 PM on July 14th, which is tomorrow if you listen to this episode as soon as it gets released.
Annie: Different cities hold fireworks and celebrations either on July 13th or July 14th. Wherever you are in France, ask what is planned, as these events are always wonderful, and it’s warm in France this week, but it’s not like canicule warm. It’s not like 35. It’s not 100 degrees. It’s 90s, but not 100, which makes a big difference.
[00:54:59] The Bayeux Tapestry Going on Loan
Annie: The Bayeux Tapestry is going on loan to England in September while they renovate the Bayeux Museum that has been housing this masterpiece for many years. Emmanuel Macron announced it in a speech he gave to Parliament in London this week. You know, it’s a big deal giving a speech to Parliament, and so he wanted to thank them with something that they have been asking for a long time, which is loan us the Bayeux Tapestry.
Annie: I think we were worried that they were never going to return it, but now they will return it. He must have assurances or he wouldn’t have done anything that stupid. Oh wait, Macron does stupid things at times. Oh, well, we’ll see. So if you’re going to Bayeux later this year, keep that in mind, or perhaps go see it in London.
[00:55:41] Notre-Dame de Paris Is VERY Popular
Annie: Since reopening in December, more than six million people have visited Notre-Dame de Paris. If this trend continues, the cathedral could become the most visited monument in France. “The emotion people felt during the fire is matched by the emotion they feel now that Notre-Dame has reopened,” says Monseigneur Olivier Ribadeau Dumas, director of the cathedral.
Annie: Between December 16th and June 30th, Notre-Dame welcomed over six million visitors, averaging 35,000 per day. If this pace holds, the cathedral could see around 12 million visitors in 2025. This would place it ahead of the Sacré-Cœur in Montmartre, ahead of the Louvre, again, ahead of Versailles, and even ahead of the Eiffel Tower in the numbers of visitors.
Annie: Before the fire of April 2019, Notre Dame got around 11 million visitors each year.
Annie: Although counting methods were less precise back then. But today, they kind of click every time somebody walks through, so they do know. And their director pointed out that this surge is probably not just a temporary trend, visitor numbers are increasing by about 1,000 people per day each month so far.
Annie: So, if it’s an extra 1,000 people per day since the reopening, then probably it’s going to peak in August. You know, some of the people who’ve been there recently said it was like Sistine Chapel kind of level of busy. It’s going to get to the point where it’s too many, I think. Anyway, in June, the cathedral spire regained one of its, of the 16 statues that once adorned its base, the base of the spire, that is. And the tower visits will resume on September 20th. So, you’ll be able to go up to the roof. And there’s going to be a fee for that, and while there isn’t a fee to go into the cathedral. Notre Dame reopened, of course, after five years of massive restoration funded by the $846 million in donations from around the world.
Annie: They still have about $140 million left, but they say they need another $140 million to complete everything that they want to do. And you don’t have to pay that kind of money to get my tour of the Notre Dame Sainte-Chapelle, and the Conciergerie, which will take you around that monument, and explains many of the things that you’re looking at.
Annie: My thanks to Anne and Christian Cotovan, who edit the podcast and produce the transcripts.
[00:58:22] Next Week on the Podcast
Annie: Next week on the podcast, an episode with my friends Patricia and Jennifer, about Chartres, the beautiful, beautiful city of Chartres.
Annie: Thank you so much for listening and I hope you join me next time so we can look around France together. Au revoir.
[00:58:41] Copyright
Annie: The Join Us in France travel podcast is written, hosted, and produced by Annie Sargent, and Copyright 2025 by AddictedToFrance. It is released under a Creative Commons attribution, non-commercial, no derivatives license.