519 - Join Us in France Travel Podcast

Table of Contents for this Episode

Categories: French History, Hauts-de-France

Discussed in this Episode

Vimy Ridge Memorial
Canadian National Memorial of Vimy Ridge
Newfoundland Memorial of Beaumont-Hamel
Notre Dame de Lorette
Ring of Remembrance
Wellington Quarry (Carrière Wellington)
Visitor Centre at Vimy Ridge
Trenches at Vimy Ridge
Grange Tunnel.

[00:00:00] Annie: This is Join Us in France, episode 519, cinq cent dix neuf.

Bonjour, I’m Annie Sargent, and Join Us in France is the podcast where we take a conversational journey through the beauty, culture, and flavors of France.

Today on the Podcast

[00:00:30] Annie: Today, I bring you a conversation with Felix Wang, who is a tour guide at Vimy Ridge, the stunning World War I Canadian Memorial near Arras in the Nord of France.

As we celebrate the anniversary of the end of World War I, tomorrow, if you listen to this episode as soon as it’s published, it’s important to remember the sacrifices made at Vimy and across the battlefields of Europe.

Honoring these battles reminds us of the immense cost of war and the enduring importance of peace. I love talking to Felix, and I think you’ll enjoy our conversation as well, especially if you’re considering a visit to the Nord of France.

Thank you supporters

[00:01:11] Annie: This podcast is supported by donors and listeners who buy my tours and services, including my Itinerary Consult Service, my GPS self-guided tours of Paris on the VoiceMap app, or take a day trip with me around the southwest of France in my electric car. You can browse all of that at my boutique joinusinfrance.com/boutique.And Patreon supporters get new episodes as soon as they are ready and ads free. If that sounds good to you, be like them, follow the link in the show notes.

Magazine segment

[00:01:42] Annie: There will not be a magazine part of the podcast today because I’ve been away on my cruise, but I do want to express my thanks to patrons for their support, and invite you to join them by going to patreon.com/JoinUs, and to support Elyse go to patreon.com/Elysart. I’ll be back next Sunday with fresh news about my cruise and my wonderful time at sea.

Bootcamp 2025

[00:02:14] Annie: But in the meantime, remember that the reservation system for Bootcamp 2025 is now open to all. You can join me and Elyse in France in real life for Bootcamp 2025. This is a 10 day immersive tour starting the morning of May 10th 2025, and ending late on May 18th in Toulouse.

You’ll have the possibility of taking French classes every weekday morning, and the rest of the time we’ll visit some of the best attractions of the Southwest including Carcassonne, Albi, the Painted Cave of Pech Merle, Saint-Cirq-Lapopie, The Castle of Foi, and several more.

You can hear previous bootcampers talk all about their experiences on episode 445 and 498 of the podcast. If you’d like to read more about the specifics or secure your spot, head over to joinusinfrance.com/bootcamp2025.

Let’s make 2025 the year you actually join us in France.

Annie and Felix

[00:03:27] Felix: Bonjour, Felix Wang, and welcome to Join Us in France. Thank you very much.

[00:03:32] Annie: Wonderful to have you. So I met you in person when I was doing a tour of Vimy Ridge and this whole area. And I approached you and I said, hey, I would love to have you on the podcast because you were really interesting, and there’s so much to say about this.

And we’re recording this to be released for the anniversary, on November 11th, where we try to remember something important that happened in connection with World War I.

Felix Wang, Vimy Ridge Tour Guide

[00:04:00] Felix: So tell us a little bit about yourself. When did you become a guide? Sure, yeah, so my name is Felix, I’m from Toronto, Canada. And I am one of the 15 student guides currently working at the Canadian National Memorial of Vimy Ridge and also the Newfoundland Memorial of Beaumont-Hamel. The first time that I was a guide was last autumn, so I was here for the first time from August to December of 2023. And I thoroughly enjoyed that experience, and so I decided to apply to come back, and this time I’ve been very, very fortunate, because I’ve been in France since the end of April, and I will be staying here until mid December. So I’ve been here with previous group of guides during the summer session of 2024 and now it’s the fall, the autumn session of 2024 as well.

So in my role as the team lead, I’ve been really, really fortunate, like I said, I’ve been able to help with the transition between the two groups of guides. And also this year has been quite the year. We’ve seen a lot of… during the summer, especially with the Paris Olympics this year, as well as the 80th anniversary of the Normandy landings from the Second World War as well. We’ve had many, many different ceremonies. As recently as, you know, earlier this month, we had a ceremony in Saint Mé, which is a small town near Boulogne sur Mer. It was the 80th anniversary for the liberation of that commune. And yeah, so I’ve been extremely, extremely lucky to be here a little bit longer this time and getting to really see what the program we have here.

We’re very fortunate with the program that we have here.

[00:05:37] Annie: Right. You guide in, I mean, I heard you guide in French, your French is impeccable. And so you do both languages, right? On site.

[00:05:44] Felix: That is correct. So all of the student guides that are hired through our program, the F SWEP program, this is a Canadian government program that hires students to come here in France. All of the students that are here, though, we’re all required to be able to speak both English and French.

The Significance of Vimy Ridge in World War I

[00:06:00] Annie: Yeah, excellent. All right. So tell us about the significance of Vimy Ridge in World War I and why it’s important to visit it.

[00:06:08] Felix: So between the two sites that we have, Vimy Ridge and Beaumont Hamel here in the Somme, we have around 85% of all the preserved battlefield on the Western Front in the First World War.

And Vimy Ridge, specifically, the Battle of Vimy Ridge was a battle that took place in April of 1917. A very costly battle, for both Canadian soldiers and German soldiers there.

But the reason why it has become so important for those who are seeking to remember what happened during the First World War is because of the memorial there. So, the memorial was built, we’re going to probably talk about that a little bit later as well, but this very beautiful, very momentous, I think we could say, memorial that has been, that was built in the 20s and 30s, to recognize all of the soldiers, the Canadian soldiers that fought in France during the First World War, who don’t have a known grave.

[00:07:03] Annie: Mm hmm.

[00:07:03] Felix: In addition to that, the Battle of Vimy Ridge, to this day, it’s the bloodiest day in Canadian military history. So over the course of the four days of battle, from the 9th to the 12th of April in 1917, 3,598 Canadian soldiers would lose their life and another 7,004 of them would be injured, so the most costly battle for the Canadian military.

The Memorial of Vimy Ridge Battle

[00:07:25] Annie: Mm hmm. And the memorial is stunning. I mean, I don’t know the dimensions, but these are two columns that rise up into the air. Talk about the memorial itself a little bit, please.

[00:07:37] Felix: Yeah, so the memorial, the Canadian battlefield memorial competition was established in the early 20s, and essentially the country of the nation of Canada after the First World War really wanted several monuments to recognize the efforts of Canadian soldiers during the First World War.

And so there was this competition, there was 160 submissions, so 160 designers, architects, sculptors, they wanted to, you know, put forth their design. And of that 160 number, 17 were chosen. And then so eventually, the person who won would be a man named Walter Allward. He is a sculptor and architect from Toronto.

And so he was the one who designed, he said that this design came to him in a dream. And it’s 6,000 tons of limestone from the south of Croatia, on a foundation of 11,000 tons of concrete and steel below ground. The significance of the memorial is, like we said, the 11,285 names that were inscribed by hand around the monument, to recognize all these names of Canadian soldiers that fought in France during the First World War who don’t have that known grave.

And those two kind of towers that you talked about, they represent the countries of France and Canada. And what we like to say is that when it’s a really beautiful day outside, not a lot of clouds, nice blue sky, that blue sky in between the two columns represents the Atlantic Ocean that separates the two nations.

[00:09:08] Annie: Ah, yes, yes, yes. I’m sure you said that during the… (tour) It is just stunning and, you know, it’s a very stately kind of, it’s not mournful per se, there are no… I mean, there are some statues of battle in the front of it, or is it on all four corners? I just don’t remember.

[00:09:27] Felix: There are various, we call them the allegorical figures that are the statues that are on the monument, around the monument, and what we really highlight is that this monument, it’s not a monument of war, it’s a monument of peace.

And so the various figures that you’ll see, especially for visitors, when you first go up to the monument, you’re actually looking at the back of the monument, and the first two statues that you’ll see on the left and the right hand side of the stairs, they represent parents, so the mother and the fathers of all those men who didn’t come back. And what’s very special about those two in particular is that the inspiration for their pose is actually from a Michelangelo sculpture that can be found in Florence by the Medici tomb.

Vimy Ridge Visitor Centre and Museum

[00:10:12] Annie: Wonderful. Okay. So what are the things that people should not miss when they go? I want to get this off right away so people know what not to miss when they go to Vimy Ridge.

[00:10:23] Felix: For sure, yeah. There’s tons to see. I would say in terms of planning, give yourself at least two and a half hours, ideally three or three and a half, becausewe are situated on a huge plot of land, so it’s not just the memorial, but we also have a visitor center. So what we always recommend for visitors, first of all, are hours of operations.

It changes a little bit every year, but for the most part, we’re open almost the entire year round. There’s a few weeks, around six weeks every year when we are closed, for example now in 2024, our last day of operations for the visitor center is going to be December 14th. And then after that, there will be roughly six weeks before we reopen again for the winter session in 2025, so likely the end of January, closer to beginning of February.

And so we always recommend if it’s not within those six weeks that you’re visiting Vimy Ridge, that you first make your way to the visitor center, because that’s where we have an excellent museum. We always have a permanent exhibit where you can see a little bit about Canada before, during, and after the First World War.

It also talks not just about the soldiers, but also about the families back home, and their experience and also the commemoration afterwards, how even today we seek to remember those sacrifices of these Canadian men during the First World War.

We also usually, will have a temporary exhibit, for example, this year in light of the Paris Olympic Games, and also in light of the fact that next year in February in 2025 the Invictus Games will be held in Canada. So currently we have a temporary exhibit on sports and the Canadian military. So kind of the role that sports has had to play in the Canadian military and even for veterans after service, how sports has helped them kind of reintegrate themselves into a new life after service.

Guided Tours

[00:12:07] Felix: It’s also in the visitor center where you’re able to book a guided tour. The same one thatwe where we met. And these are free guided tours that go every 30 minutes. And so, depending on the time of the year that you’re going to come to visit us, we’re open either from 10AM to 6PM or from 9AM to 5PM.

So, actually, tomorrow will be our first day of winter operations, we’re changing our hours of operations. So, essentially, if you visit us between March and the end of September, it’ll be during our summer hours, which are from 10 to 6PM. And then if you’re visiting us in February or after October onwards until the end of the year,it’s from 9AM to 5PM.

Very good. Yeah. We went back because we actually drove up to the memorial, not realizing that there was also a visitor center. And so we just looked around the memorial and thought it was amazing. And then when we were driving off, like, oh, there’s a visitor center. Okay, let’s stop.

And you were closing. And so we came back the next day during operations, you know, when you were open. But I think that’s really important. Do go to the visitor center because you can see the trenches. You can see, you can feel the distance between the German soldiers and the Canadian soldiers.

Vimy Ridge, a Strategic Location During War

[00:13:27] Felix: Why was Vimy Ridge such a strategic location during the war?

Yeah, yeah. We can talk a little bit about that. So, one of the biggest reasons, economically and also logistically, the Nord Pas de Calais region of France produced around half of all the coal in France, during that time. And so, the German army took control of what we call Vimy Ridge, very early on in the war. So right from around October of 1914, it would’ve been under the control of the German forces. And so understandably, you know, both sides didn’t want the other side to have control over the coal, because coal is going to not only, you know, fuel the war, but also it’s important to have coal to obviously, to ship the men, to ship supplies and carry the munitions across, you know, vast distances.

[00:14:18] Annie: Yeah.

[00:14:19] Felix: But also because the ridge itself is a strategic point in and of itself, because it’s one of the highest points in the area. So where the monument stands today is what we call it’s on Hill 145, which is 145 meters above sea level.

So the only kind of point area that’s taller, higher in elevation than Vimy Ridge, where the Vimy Memorial is today, is where the French Necropole is at Notre Dame de Lorette, which is not too far, just Nordwest of Vimy. But essentially, when you’re on the monument and when visitors who are perhaps, who are planning a trip right now listening to this podcast going to Vimy Ridge, you’re going to be able to see towards the east for miles and miles because, it is, you know, the important vantage point. And you get the sense of why that point in particular would have been so important for perhaps the Allied forces to want to take that point. Because if they had control over Hill 145, it meant that they would have, you know, a site to see for so, so far away and that they could really push the German forces back for many, many kilometers.

[00:15:21] Annie: Mm hmm. Yeah, it’s stunning, it’s beautiful. And you see it from a distance. We drove and you can see it as you’re driving up from a distance. It’s really gorgeous.

The Centennial park

[00:15:30] Annie: Briefly mention the other sites. You mentioned the French memorial. What are the sites are nearby that people should see as well?

[00:15:39] Felix: Yeah, no, definitely. So in addition to, actually, before I even talk about the surrounding sites, on the entire memorial site itself, and in addition to having the memorial itself, right next to the memorial, we have a centennial park. So this is something that was inaugurated quite recently, in the last few years.

And so there is this kind of a circular park, with some of the trees that were planted for that centennial, acorns that were actually brought back from France, back to Canada and then back again. So it’s kind of a full circle moment that park, commemorating the 100th anniversary of the battle itself.

So just next to the parking lot there by the Vimy Memorial. And also in addition to our visitor center, even if let’s say you don’t have enough time to follow one of our guided tours, you’re still able to park by the visitor center and take a look, like you said, for yourself the trenches that have been preserved.

So there’s been two sections, kind of one side the Canadian observation trenches that have been preserved and also on the other side of no man’s land, the German observation trenches that were also preserved. And then the last thing on site for us is between the memorial and the visitor center, we have two cemeteries that are on site.

And so we also will invite visitors, particularly if they, especially if they have a family member that might be buried there, or even if they don’t, just to go and take a look at some of the names that are… you can find the cemeteries there on site.

More Things to Visit Nearby: Notre Dame de Lorette

[00:17:08] Felix: In terms of things that you can do around in the surrounding area, there is, like we said, the Notre Dame de Lorette, which is the biggest French necropole in France.

And there are tens of thousands, if I’m not mistaken, perhaps even hundreds of thousands of graves. I think it’s in the tens of thousands. There’s also a beautiful chapel there where you can go inside and take a look and you see names of, you know, French battalions, French regiments from all over the country.

You’ll see regiments from Lyon. You’ll see regiments from, you know, in the south well. Everywhere, truly everywhere. Because that’s just the amount of loss that was experienced in that region. So, briefly touching on kind of the French Army in the Vimy area, in the Artrois region, which is kind of that immediate region there, hundreds of thousands of French soldiers would’ve lost their lives, particularly in May of 1915.

Actually, the French Army, The Moroccan division of the French army, briefly took Vimy Ridge for a few hours in 1915, in May of 1915. And there is a commemorative plaque right next to the parking on our site as well, dedicated to the Moroccan division who made that sacrifice. Unfortunately, they were not able to keep Hill 145, keep the ridge, because a counter offensive by the German army forced them back.

But nonetheless, it’s really thanks to the French army that the Canadian divisions when they’re attacking in April of 1917, that they’re able to start where they started from and not five, six kilometers to the west where they did.

The Ring of Remembrance

[00:18:37] Felix: So in addition to Notre Dame de Lorette, that we also have a ‘Ring of Remembrance’, which is just next to Notre Dame de Lorette.

This is another monument that was, I believe inaugurated in 2014. And this is a giant metal ringthat you can walk on the inside of and see the names of, I don’t want to get the number wrong, it’s over half a million. it’s either 560 – 580,000 names of soldiers who lost their life in the Second Battle of Artois, and it’s all just alphabetical.

So it’s not listed in, by nationality, by religion, by really anything, by age, by rank, none of that. It’s just alphabetical names, and it’s very sobering to see the number of names, especially the names that are the common names, right? For the German forces, perhaps a Johann Schmidt that repeats itself.

On the British side, perhaps a John Smith, right? It’s these names that repeat themselves over and over again, and you get an idea for just one battle, how many lives were lost. So it’s a very, I heavily recommend that visitors, if they can, it’s only about a 15-20 minute drive from where we are at Vimy Ridge.

Carrière Wellington

[00:19:45] Felix: And then also south of us in the city of Arras, there’s the Carrière Wellington, the Wellington quarries, where around the same time that the Canadian divisions are attacking in the Nord of this, the battle, what we call the Battle of Vimy Ridge, is actually part of the larger battle, the Second Battle of Arras. And so, in the city of Arras, south of Vimy, there is an excellent museum, called the Wellington Quarry.

It’s where, in the Middle Ages, in the 14th, 15th centuries, the stone to build the city of Arras was taken from. But then during the First World War, New Zealand, members of the New Zealand soldiers, they were connecting a lot of these old quarries together, trying to get below the German defences.

They have guided tours there as well in English and French. And I’ll tell you a little bit about that battle and about the larger battle of Arras as well. So I heavily recommend doing those two sites in Arras.

[00:20:34] Annie: I just did the one, I just did the Wellington, Carrière Wellington, fantastic place. And I wish I had also stopped at the French one. But there are many, I mean, you know, we were only there for a few days. I’m going back. I want to see more of that area. That’s lots to see there. So why did they dig?

The Purpose of the Underground Tunnels

[00:20:51] Annie: Why did they go underground? What was the purpose of this?

[00:20:55] Felix: That’s a really good question, because you think about the amount of labour, just to give maybe listeners some context in terms of the work that was required to dig these tunnels before we talk about why they would go through, the challenges of doing this. In the Vimy sector alone, where the Canadian divisions were preparing for the battle, in April of 1917, there were 14 tunnels. So in addition to the one that visitors can visit today during the guided tour, there were 13 other tunnels and all of these 14 tunnels together would’ve been around 10, just under 10 kilometers of tunnel below ground. And these are minor, a lot of these minor… a lot of work. A lot of work.

Especially, you think about the number of men that are working on these tunnels, around 4,000 men in the Vimy sector alone. In the larger area, around 12,000 men. And they’re working in teams typically as well. But in a day, one team would dig around six meters of these tunnels. So you think about how much time it would’ve taken to do all this work.

But the reason why it was really to…

Well one, it was to protect the soldiers, especially the messengers. So the tunnel that visitors can see today at, right by the visitor center, the Grange Communication subway tunnel. This is one of the tunnels we call the communication tunnel because they kind of replaced the communication trenches above ground.

And to give listeners maybe a visual idea just to, the communication trench is the one that connects all of the other trenches. It’s kind of perpendicular to the trenches that are right up against no man’s land and then the reserve, also the reserve trenches that are all the way further away from no man’s land.

And so you had soldiers who for the most part volunteered to be what we call runners, the messengers, and they had to run between these lines they had to deliver these messages, important messages, and sometimes packages for the officers with the commanders. Very very dangerous, very very dangerous in some cases their life expectancy did not even exceed eight to ten days. And so, these tunnels were built so that the messengers, runners, could run below ground.

The other big reason for having tunnels like this, is really to protect the soldiers on the day of the battle because, you can fit a lot, a lot of soldiers, in some cases hundreds of soldiers, nearly a thousand soldiers in the Grange subway tunnel, for example, right up against the observation line.

So that at 5:30AM when the battle begins at Vimy Ridge, they can start very close to where the German forces would have been. The last reason is that you also had tunnels that were really offensive. So, what we call the deep fighting tunnels at Vimy, these are tunnels that were dug really deep.

So we’re talking in some cases 30, even up to 35 meters below ground, and these tunnels were dug by both sides, the German forces and the Allied forces, but with the purpose was really to destroy each other’s tunnels. So one side might try to dig one tunnel below the other and set up mines and detonate those mines below where they believed the opposing forces had their tunnels.

And so that would lead to some of the big craters that visitors can see today, in between the two sides, during our guided tour, at the very end of the guided tour actually. Those craters are only possible because of underground mines. It would not really have been feasible or possible for a crater of that size and depth to be created by shell fire above.

[00:24:09] Annie: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. It’s a very impressive… and you can walk around those trenches and tunnels and that, just it just gives you the creeps, just, I mean, you do it every day, so it probably doesn’t do this to you anymore, but to me, it was like, oh… you know, I’m a little bit claustrophobic.

I mean, it’s not like it’s frightening to do, you know, there are people bring their kids all the time, whatever… But if you think about what was happening in those tunnels, it’s sobering, it’s a big deal.

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What Made Them Victorious?

[00:24:37] Annie: So what did the Canadians do to have a successful, I guess, assault in this area? What made them victorious?

[00:24:48] Felix: There are many answers because many things came together. So we can talk about the preparations, first of all. For an entire week before the 9th of April there were close to around a million shells that would have been fired on the German army along the seven kilometers of the front for the Canadian, the 4th Canadian divisions.

This means that for that entire week, the German army that’s stationed along that front, we can only imagine what it would have been like, it’s, you know, day and night without stopping, very little chance for them to get any rest.

In fact, some of the German soldiers that were in that area, they called that week the week of suffering because they ran out of food, presumably very early on during that week.

And also they were cut off from their, you know, their reserves.

More strategic tactics that were employed, maps were given out to soldiers. And you might be thinking to yourself, listening to this podcast, well, of course, maps would be given to the soldiers. They need to know where they’re going. But in many other battles, especially in 1916 during the Battle of the Somme, for example, many of the soldiers were not given maps. And it was because officers and commanders were at times afraid that if the soldiers deserted, or if they were captured, that the maps would be given to the German forces and all that information of where their trenches were, where the tunnels were, perhaps that would all be divulged to the other side. And so, in some cases in 1916 and battles before that as well, soldiers were lost because as their, you know, engaging in battle, if their captain, their sergeant, whoever’s, you know, has the map and knows where they’re going is killed or injured, they didn’t know how to continue.

Giving Maps to the Soldiers

[00:26:23] Felix: And so during this battle, they realized, no, we need to make sure the men know where they’re going. And the first wave of infantry attack at Vimy Ridge already was 15,000 men, and all 15,000 of them would have had maps. The second wave, also another 15,000 men also would have had maps. So kind of the simple thing that we might not think of today, we assume, you know, if you’re carrying out a military operation, the people who are carrying it out should know where they’re going. That wasn’t always the case.

Also, one of the, there’s a lot of, you know, it’s kind of science that was used.We think about the First World War as, you know, over a hundred years ago, but in many cases this war brought about new technologies that were tested throughout the four years. For example Colonel Andy McNaughton, he was a physicist in Montreal at the University of McGill, McGill University.

Spot Flashing and Sound Ranging

[00:27:10] Felix: He invented kind of this new tactic of, it’s called spot flashing and sound ranging in order to improve the Canadian division’s ability to identify targets and neutralize the German forces, where their guns were positioned. And so spot flashing would be, let’s say you have two soldiers along the observation line.

They see a muzzle flash. And they would note where it is and measure the angle. And if you had two, in some cases, better if you have three, and you measure that angle, you can triangulate that position and know exactly where that muzzle flash was coming from. And that’s how they were able to determine the distance and the position of some of the German forces weapons on the other side.

Same thing with sound ranging, so they would have kind of microphones set up in various locations, and they would be able to kind of measure the exact delay between when microphones would hear a huge, a bang, for example, and that would also improve their ability to be able to target where the German forces had their positions.

And in fact, the sound ranging tactic could be calculated in some cases within three minutes, and to an accuracy of 25 to 100 yards. So less than 100 meters, very, very accurate for the time. And this is all happening a hundred years ago, where we think sometimes people think First World War is all just, you know, bayonets and barbed wire. But no, there was a lot of kind of this advance of physics and science in order to try to improve their tactics during this battle.

Waiting and preparation

[00:28:40] Annie: Yeah, find out where the enemy was. The battle itself was very intense. But did they also spend a lot of time digging and waiting? And was there a lot of time leading up to the assault? How long were they in place before the actual assault took place, I guess?

[00:28:59] Felix: Yeah, they would have been in place definitely at least a few weeks before the battle begins. In terms of the tunnels being prepared, some of these tunnels are being dug more than a year before the battle begins. And just to make sure the credit is where the credit is where it’s due, a lot of the men that were working on these tunnels, were not in fact Canadian, but a lot of them were Welsh or Scottish miners, part of the Royal Engineers of the British Army. Because these were the professional miners, what we call also sappers. These were the sappers that had that expertise and the experience in digging tunnels in their home countries, they were the ones that were chosen to come and dig a lot of these tunnels.

But in terms of, you know, how long the soldiers were in place immediately before the battle, some of the soldiers in the Grange subway tunnel, which is part of the guided tour, some of these soldiers were waiting 36 hours in the tunnel, before the battle begins, because they need to make sure there’s enough time for all the soldiers to get in, but also at a moment’s notice, you know, whenever the commander makes the call, the battle begins.

Soldier Training

[00:30:03] Annie: How much training did these soldiers get before they went? I mean, I assume they were trained at home in Canada before arriving to the battlefield. Do you know much about that?

[00:30:15] Felix: I know a little bit about that. So yes, in some cases, they were trained in Canada, but many of the Canadian soldiers that fought during the First World War actually did their training in England. The first, especially the first one that enlisted, in 1914, many of them trained in Salisbury Plain, which is in Scotland, if I’m not mistaken.

But so a lot of them, during Vimy as well, a lot of the soldiers, especially the ones who are, would’ve been on the front lines in direct combat with the German forces, many of them, this would’ve been their first, second, experience at combat. They knew also that this battle was going to be quite, quite the battle, because the other thing about Vimy is that it’s, the Battle of Vimy Ridge, is that it marked the first and in fact the only time that all four Canadian divisions fought together side by side during the First World War.So you have a hundred thousand men, all of them who are volunteers at this point because conscription had not begun yet in Canada, fighting along this, these seven kilometers, and they knew that the battle was going to be quite the battle, because they were fed a very big breakfast. And that’s how they knew.

Canada and World Wars

[00:31:15] Annie: Wow, wow, that’s crazy. So, Canada is not famous for being a warring country, a war like country, but clearly they rose up to the challenge in both World War I and World War II. Can you speak to that a little bit?

[00:31:31] Felix: Yes. I think one of the reactions that we get very often from visitors, French visitors mostly, is the fact that Canada had such a contribution of that magnitude, especially considering the population of Canada in 1914 was around 8 million people. And to have sent 400,000 people, 400,000 men across the Atlantic Ocean fighting in France or in Belgium, that’s 10 percent of the male population, right?

That’s, and it’s not even, we’re not even counting, we’re counting all males, we’re counting babies, we’re counting men that would have been too old to serve. 10% of the male population.

In the First World War, what’s very different is that Canada, at the time, very much, many people in Canada still saw themselves as, and they were in fact, British subjects.

And so there was this very strong tie to the Motherland, in many cases, Canadians at the time were not born in Canada, so they were, you know, incentivized to move to Canada for farming, for other reasons, for job opportunities. But yes, it’s true that during the First and Second World War, Canadian contributions, especially relative to the population were, are remarkable, are truly remarkable.

And while Canada was already its own country, becoming a dominion of Great Britain in 1867, many people like to talk about how the First World War, especially at the conclusion of the First World War, is where Canada gets kind of a seat on the world stage, because of its contributions and that continues.

When we talk about history, especially, you know, the League of Nations that gets established after the First World War, Canada being actually a participant in that. And then eventually that’s the precursor to now the United Nations, right? And so, yes, definitely.

The Job as a Tour Guide

[00:33:17] Annie: Mm hmm. So what do you like most about this job? I mean, obviously you like your job, you enjoy the visits and all that, because it could be very, like, it could be a drab, like, it could be a downer, but going there, you feel this sense of just respect, but also, you know, hope. Tell us a little bit about both of those ideas and how you embody that in the work that you do.

[00:33:41] Felix: I think that’s a perfect way to kind of explain what we, what guides experience, because we learn a lot about the history and, personally for me, prior to starting this job, I definitely thought this was interesting that, you know, Canada fought in France during the First World War. But to be frank with you, when I was in high school and I was taking my history classes, I was not a very good history student. And I am not a history student now, I am doing my studies in French and economics, but after coming here and becoming a guide and learning about, just these experiences of what these men had to go through and especially witnessing with your own two eyes, the concentration of how close a lot of these cemeteries, these memorials are, you definitely gain this newfound appreciation for how horrible war is, if we can put it that way.

And some days we have slower days, that can be a little bit of a drag. But in terms of the actual content, the actual content of sharing the history of what happened at our two national sites to visitors, it is absolutely, it is absolutely so great. And the reason why, is because it gives really our work meaning when we see the reactions on the faces of visitors and when they get an actual sense of how close the two sides were in some cases, and the number of casualties. It’s especially if we get those folks, and we get them probably a lot more often than one might think, but of people who are visiting their ancestors, their great uncles, or their great grandfather, whatever it may be, and especially some of them, they don’t know some of the resources.

They’re not aware of the resources that are available to give them more information, and more kind of context, and in some cases closure as well. Because they don’t know what happened to that ancestor. But when we can, we’re able to share that with visitors and to be able to give that extra kind of information, truly, truly gives our work purpose and meaning.

And I think I can speak on half of all the guides, past, present, and future that that’s one of the best parts of the job is, is precisely that.

[00:35:47] Annie: Right, so if somebody shows up with the name of a soldier that they know about in their family, you were able to tell them more about this person, like they fought here or not, or that sort of information?

[00:35:59] Felix: Exactly.

In many cases visitors are aware that, for example, Canadian soldiers that fought during the First World War, their records are searchable through the Library and Archives Canada, and so you can find in some cases, we’re talking about 80 pages in a PDF of their documentation in terms of where they enlisted, on their enlistment forms, any medical leave that they had to take, pay sheets, any disciplinary action that the soldiers might have been subject to.

[00:36:26] Annie: Mm hmm.

[00:36:27] Felix: Sometimes, visitors don’t know, aren’t aware of that, and so we’re able to share that resource to them. And sometimes for, at Vimy we have a very excellent map, like a battle map of where a particular battalion fought along the seven kilometers. And so, for visitors who do know, a little bit more, and even if they don’t, we can help them search up, you know, what battalion their ancestor, their connection served in and we’re able to give them a geographic, you know, not down to the meter or anything like that, but at least a more, you know, accurate idea of where their, the area of where their ancestors served. And that’s always, a lot of visitors will come and want to understandably walk in the path of where someone in their family walked.

Newfoundland Memorial of Beaumont Hamel.

[00:37:07] Annie: Sure. So tell us a little bit about the other site. You say you guide also in another site. Tell us more about that one, please.

[00:37:14] Felix: Yes, so that’s where I’m calling you from right now at our, the Newfoundland Memorial of Beaumont Hamel. So, we’re very privileged now as guides, we get to work on both sites and we get to learn about both of them. This is a battle that takes place before the Battle of Vimy Ridge, in July, the 1st of July, 1916.

And this is also the first day of the Battle of the Somme. The Battle of the Somme is a five and a half month campaign that stretches around 39 kilometers of the present day Somme department in France here. A little bit of background on Newfoundland itself, Newfoundland in the First World War in 1914 was its own dominion of the British Empire, so it was not a part of Canada, and that’s why we call it the Newfoundland Memorial of Beaumont Hamel.

The 1st Newfoundland Regiment would have served here on the 1st of July, 1916, and this is the bloodiest day in Newfoundland military history as well. The 1st of July also being the bloodiest day in British military history because of, we can go into the details in terms of why this battle went so poorly, but of roughly 780 men of the 1st Newfoundland Regiment that advanced on that day, after 30 minutes of battle, the following morning only 68 of them were able to answer roll call.

[00:38:28] Annie: Wow.

[00:38:28] Felix: The rest were either killed, or missing, or too injured to continue. And so that’s a casualty rate of approximately 86%.

[00:38:37] Felix: One of the highest, you know, can ever be observed. And we’re able to also have guided tours that we also offer guided tours here at Beaumont Hamel, and a little bit of a longer tour around 45 to 50 minutes.

Background on Newfoundland before the war

[00:38:50] Felix: And we show visitors, first of all, we take them through the history of the first Newfoundland regiments, kind of a little bit of background on Newfoundland before the war, because this is an island that’s the size of England, but has the population at the time of 242,000.

So various small communities that are quite dispersed throughout the dominion and many of these men, I mean, you can still see the effects of what the First World War did to Newfoundland, even today.

Unknown soldier of Newfoundland was brought home, 25th May 2024 x

[00:39:19] Felix: In fact, this year, if I can touch on this, are very special this summer because this was the year that an unknown soldier of Newfoundland was brought home. So, in many of the other Commonwealth countries, the Commonwealth War Graves Commission has allowed one unknown soldier to be repatriated back to their home nation, that soldier being the representative of all of the other soldiers who were never found or never identified.

And for a long time Canada, since 2000, has had its Unknown Soldier taken from a British cemetery near Vimy Ridge, actually, a cemetery called Cabaret Rouge British Cemetery, back to Ottawa in Canada. But Newfoundland did not have an unknown soldier. And so, through it was, I believe it was a member of the Royal Canadian Legion in St. John’s, the capital of Newfoundland, who really pushed for this initiative, for this project to be done where an unknown soldier from Newfoundland would be also brought back home.

And so this year, on the 25th of May, we had a very special ceremony, this casket was handed off by the French military to the Canadian military draped in the Canadian flag and flown back to St. John’s the very same day. All the while, one of my supervisors, Jacob Neal, who’s from St. John’s himself, saying the ode to Newfoundland, as the ceremony takes place. And just talking about this, the story with you, what the ceremony, I’m getting goosebumps on my back, and I can assure you that every single guide who was there, very small part that we had to play, but we were there as well here at Beaumont Hamel on that day, and it was very, very touching.

100th anniversary of the National War Memorial in St. John’s in Newfoundland

[00:40:53] Felix: And so this year marks the 100th anniversary of the National War Memorial in St. John’s in Newfoundland, and so they actually made some modifications to that, the War Memorial, it’s a kind of like an outside area of remembrance. They modified it, and on the 1st of July this year, to commemorate the Battle of Beaumont Hamel, they interred the casket of this unknown soldier in Newfoundland, and it was a once in a lifetime experience, and perhaps, to be honest with you, perhaps the last unknown soldier to be repatriated back to their home country.

[00:41:24] Annie: Wow. Yeah, that’s, yeah, that’s a very good point. It took so long is unbelievable. But yeah, these things take a long time.

So do you often interface with the French military?

[00:41:33] Felix: No, I wouldn’t say so, that was. No, we, I mean, from time to time, there will be local police, men and women who come and visit our sites, but it’s not often that we interact with the French military on our sites.

Vimy canadian land for the purposes of commemoration

[00:41:45] Annie: So is this officially like Canadian territory, or is the land being given to Canada?

[00:41:50] Felix: This is a common question we get, sometimes jokingly visitors will ask, are we in Canada? And the answer we give is that, no, you’re not in Canada, we have not stamped your passports on your way in here, and French law still applies. So, depending on the site, it’s a little bit different between Beaumont Hamel and Vimy, but both sites, so we can start off with Vimy, perhaps, so the immediate area surrounding where the monument is was purchased by the Canadian government after the war, and many countries were doing this because they wanted to erect monuments and memorials where their soldiers had sacrificed. And so, initially this was allowed, after a few years, however the French government didn’t really love the idea of foreign governments owning land in France.

A lot of these lands were symbolically sold back to France for a nominal amount. In the case of Vimy Ridge, a larger portion of the site was then given in perpetuity, by the French government to the Canadian people for the purposes of commemoration. And so, in layman’s terms, what that means is that symbolically, the land of Vimy Ridge is dedicated in perpetuity, meaning forever, for Canadians to come and pay their respects to the soldiers who fought there.

At Beaumont-Hamel, it’s a little bit different, because the site was actually purchased mostly with funds by both the Newfoundland government at the time, but also by people back at home.

So, The Women’s Patriotic Association in Newfoundland, they were a key part in raising money for the purchase of the land because understandably, after the war, especially here at Beaumont, a lot of the local French farm owners, they wanted to continue their lives.

And so a lot of the old battlefields were plowed, and today, even if you look around our site, it’s just farmland, but mostly around our site. But this effort was made by people back at home in Newfoundland to preserve the trenches here. And so, fundraising efforts also led by Lieutenant Colonel Thomas Nangle.

He was kind of the father, the padre of the regiment, he really took charge in negotiating with the local farm owners, for the rights to purchase this land, and also once again, after a few years, this land was sold back to the French government, and then given to the people of Newfoundland in perpetuity for the purposes of commemoration. And when Newfoundland joined Canada in 1949, kind of the responsibility of maintaining the site fell to the Department of National Affairs.

[00:44:15] Annie: Mm hmm. Which is still who does, who maintains both of those beautiful sites.

[00:44:21] Felix: Department of Veterans Affairs, excuse me.

[00:44:23] Annie: And they are beautiful. I mean, you do a fantastic job there. The maintenance is, I mean, it’s spotless.

[00:44:28] Felix: Thank you.

[00:44:28] Annie: It’s beautiful. Yeah, it’s fantastic.

[00:44:30] Felix: We’re very lucky as well because we work with the, well, the Commonwealth War Graves Commission is kind of contracted to help us maintain these sites because as you saw at Vimy, it’s a huge plot of land that needs to be taken care of.

And our lovely sheep that also help with the grass.

[00:44:47] Annie: I didn’t see the sheep. Oh!

[00:44:49] Felix: You’ll have to come back and see.

[00:44:50] Annie: Yeah.

[00:44:50] Felix: They’re on both, both the sites as well.

[00:44:52] Annie: Very nice. So what are your personal plans? You said you, we’re going to finish with this, we’re going to end on this, you said you’re a student, so are you studying in France, or are you just here to do this work and then you’ll go back to Canada for your studies?

[00:45:05] Felix: Yeah, I’ll be heading back to Canada, and in terms of what I envision for myself after, after my studies, I see myself working in the public service, I think being here and gaining all this experience, especially the privilege of being able to work in Europe as a student, it has been truly, truly so rewarding, so eye opening. And I’ve kind of realized, I think, for me personally, that perhaps diplomacy or a role in Canada’s role in the international community would be something that I would be very interested in.

So that’s something that I am pursuing and hopefully I’ll be able to be back in France or back in Europe for longer next time.

[00:45:41] Annie: For the work, yeah. That’s fantastic. That’s fantastic. Well, thank you so very much. For someone who didn’t like history, you sure know a lot of history.

[00:45:50] Felix: That’s what this job will do. And it’s truly, like I /said, once again, it’s such a privilege for us to represent Canada and to be able to share these stories of, obviously these are tragic stories, but such important stories. And that’s what we hope to do for years to come.

So thank you for having me on this podcast as well. I really appreciate it.

Thank you so much and we have to remember these things because we hope they never happen again.

That’s really the big idea behind all of this. And I think you do a fantastic job. Thank you so much, Felix, and best wishes to you going forward.

It was lovely. Thank you very much. Take care.

[00:46:24] Annie: Au revoir.

[00:46:25] Felix: Au revoir.

[00:46:25] Annie Sargent: The Join Us in France travel podcast is written, hosted, and produced by Annie Sargent and Copyright 2024 by AddictedToFrance. It is released under a Creative Commons, attribution, non-commercial, no derivatives license.

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Transcript for Episode 519: Exploring Vimy Ridge: WWI Remembrance in France