515 - Join Us in France Travel Podcast

Categories: French History, Off the Beaten Track in France, Toulouse Area

Discussed in this Episode

Saint-Nicolas-de-la-Grave
Cadillac Museum
Castelsarrasin
Moissac
Église des Carmes
Confluence of the Garonne and Tarn Rivers
Montauban
Place Nationale Montauban
Ingres Bourdelle Museum
Olympe de Gouges Theatre
Bordeaux
Hôtel Bouvinard
Toulouse
Detroit
Fort Pontchartrain
Fort Michilimackinac
Quebec City
Louisiana
Bastille
Crozat family Toulouse

[00:00:00] Annie Sargent: This is Join Us in France, episode 515, cinq cent quinze.

Bonjour, I’m Annie Sargent, and Join Us in France is the podcast where we take a conversational journey through the beauty, culture, and flavors of France.

Today on the Podcast

[00:00:31] Annie Sargent: Today, you’ll get to discover the adventurous life of Antoine Laumet, better known as La Mothe Cadillac, the French explorer who founded Detroit.

Join me and my guest Kim Loftus as we delve into the fascinating tale of his exploits, transformation, and enduring legacy. From his humble beginnings near Toulouse, my fair city, to his impactful presence in the New World, in this episode, we take a deep dive into the captivating adventure that shaped two continents.

What a guy, you’ll see.

Podcast Supporters

[00:01:08] Annie Sargent: This podcast is supported by donors and listeners who buy my tours and services, including my itinerary consult service, my GPS self-guided tours of Paris on the VoiceMap app, or take a day trip with me around the southwest of France in my electric car. You can browse all of that at my boutique: joinusinfrance.com/boutique.

And Patreon supporters get new episodes as soon as they are ready and ad-free. If that sounds good to you, be like them, follow the link in the show notes.

The Magazine segment

[00:01:38] Annie Sargent: For the magazine part of the podcast, after my chat with Kim today, I’ll discuss must have items you should have in your travel purse or small backpack.

Be a minimalist. You just want the right things, but not too much.

Bootcamp 2025

[00:01:54] Annie Sargent: Exciting news! The booking system for the Bootcamp 2025 is now officially open for patrons. This exclusive event will take place in Toulouse from May 10th to May 18th, 2025. We highly recommend arriving on May 9th and departing on May 19th, to ensure that you don’t miss any of the fun and activities planned. As always, this event sells out quickly, so if you’re a patron, now is the time to lock in your spot. For everyone else, booking will open to the general listenership next week. Stay tuned to the podcast, emails, and Patreon messages for update.

What’s the bootcamp, you ask? This is a 10 day immersive experience exploring the Southwest of France, packed with daily visits to some of the most beautiful and historically significant sites in our region.

If you want to add a bit more challenge, you can also take French classes in the morning at Langue Onze in Toulouse.

They offer courses at every level, from total beginner to advanced. The language classes are optional and separate, but I coordinate with Langue Onze to ensure that there are no scheduling conflicts, so you can enjoy both without missing a beat. If you choose to do both, it’ll be a true bootcamp experience, keeping you busy from 9am to 9pm every day.

If you opt to not take the classes, you’ll still have full day activities on weekends, with weekday mornings free to explore at your leisure. The visits are conducted by Elyse in English, but if you are feeling confident and want to practice your French with me, I’ll gladly respond in French.

Anybody who speaks to me in French, I respond in French. That’s how it works. If you speak in English, I respond in English. And if you try Spanish, good luck to you, but I will try anyway. And of course, we’ll be soaking in France the entire time and that always helps with language acquisition.

One last note, this may be the final year Elyse joins me on the bootcamp, as it is an intense experience and it takes a lot out of her. So if you want to experience the dynamic duo of Annie and Elyse in person, now is the time to sign up.

Annie and Kim

[00:04:25] Annie Sargent: Bonjour, Kim Loftus, and welcome back to Join Us in France.

[00:04:29] Kim Loftus: Bonjour, Annie. Merci.

[00:04:31] Annie Sargent: Wonderful to have you. We are going to talk about quite the guy.

[00:04:36] Kim Loftus: Yeah.

[00:04:36] Annie Sargent: And quite the story. So there was this guy called Antoine Laumet, that’s how he started, and he was born in a small village not far from Toulouse, Saint-Nicolas-de-la-Grav e. And his dad was a judge. In those days you purchased your title to be a judge or to be anything else, as a matter of fact, and so he was like a judge under another judge. But he was not very wealthy, but he did fine, and then one day, this Antoine Laumet decided to go to America. And a lot of things happened.

Discovering Cadillac’s Story

[00:05:15] Annie Sargent: So tell us a little bit about what you know about him and why you’re so interested in this person.

[00:05:20] Kim Loftus: Sure. Well, I have been a fan of French, and French culture and history, for as long as I can remember back to high school. Because I took French in high school and college and Madame Gill, our high school teacher, was very good about weaving in culture and history. So I know I learned a little bit about him back then as well as other people that I’ve been fascinated with for years, but he really popped up in my awareness zone about two years ago when I was the development director for the Historical Society of Michigan. It’s a small nonprofit in Michigan that promotes Michigan history education.

And so I was getting acquainted with some of the work that they’ve been doing, and I came across Cadillac’s wife, Marie Therese, and found a children’s book, a young adult book about her, and just thought that was fascinating. So then I wanted to learn about him.

Meanwhile, you announced in the first bootcamp in 2023, and I had signed up, and then I started to look, well, where are some famous people from Michigan, especially New France?

Where did they come from? And Cadillac, surprisingly, was born not an hour, sort of, north west of Toulouse. And so I reached out to you and said, Can we go? And it was too late for the first bootcamp. So when I signed up for this year’s bootcamp 2024, it was a must. I immediately signed up and then said Annie, can I book you for a trip?

Can we go to Saint-Nicolas-de-la-Grave? And then amazing that Cadillac was, his last appointment that he purchased was a governor, or a mayor of Castelsarrasin, and that’s less than 15 minutes from Saint-Nicolas-de-la-Grave, and he supposedly was buried there. By the time we got to the bootcamp day trip, it turns out that Cadillac probably studied in Moissac as well.

[00:07:13] Annie Sargent: Yeah, Moissac.

[00:07:14] Kim Loftus: Moissac. That’s where his father kind of worked. There were relationships there, so they figure there’s nothing official, but, so these three little towns related to the man who is credited with founding Detroit and establishing the first fort there in 1701. That fort was called Fort Pontchartrain. Those were all connected to this person of great Michigan historic significance. He was in Michigan a lot, because he also was governor of one of the northernmost forts, prior to 1701, Fort Michimillimac. And he was there for several years, and then got called back to France, convinced them to let him come back to the New France and establish the fort in Detroit.

The Journey to Saint Nicolas de la Grave

[00:07:59] Annie Sargent: Yeah. So for our day trip, we had, it was a bit of an adventure because I had looked ahead and saw that there’s a museum in the house where he was born, in Saint Nicolas de la Grave. And that the museum was open every morning, you know, it gave hours and whatever. And when we showed up, it was locked.

Nobody there. So that was a bit disappointing. So we…

[00:08:24] Kim Loftus: Except…

[00:08:25] Annie Sargent: Except, yeah, go ahead, go ahead, you tell it!

[00:08:28] Kim Loftus: Except while we’re standing there going, oh, drats, this isn’t open until July or August and we’re there in May, a man came out across the street and started talking to Annie, and it turns out he was a descendant through Cadillac’s grandmother’s side of the family, and he proceeded to march us over to the tourism office, the mayor’s office, and then the post office, trying to find a key to the museum. And he was delightful, and it was just wonderful to watch the animated conversations all along the way.

He spoke such rapid French, Elizabeth Saxon, who came with us, neither of us could understand entirely the conversation, but loved being part of

[00:09:08] Annie Sargent: Right, so yeah, he was like, he was, oh, you must see this, you came all this way, it’s terrible that it’s closed, whatever. And this does outline a problem that we have in France is that a lot of the time the people who do tourism, you know, the tourist office, things like that, they are paid by the city, and this was a long weekend, and city employees get their long weekends, which doesn’t make any sense. Because that’s when people are likely to come visit.

Anyway, that’s another whole situation. But because we went to talk to the people at City Hall, I decided, and of course we didn’t quit on our day trip. We continued on to Castelsarrasin and to Moissac that day, to do the rest of the visit, we just hadn’t seen the museum where he was born.

And then I called the City Hall and left a message, and the mayor called me back, and said, he apologized. He said, I’m so sorry that nobody was there to open for you, they should have called me. I would have opened for you, and I said, well, we could conceivably come back just for that. And he said, oh, then yeah.

So we made a date and we went back. And when we went back, there was the mayor. He had invited the local historian to show us around. She was delightful, didn’t speak any English, but she was delightful and she told us the whole story. And we also both of us bought this book.

It’s called Le Destin Extraordinaire du Gascon Lamothe Cadillac. So The Extraordinary Destiny of the Gascon Lamothe Cadillac. And I loved what the lady, the historian told us about him, because she weaved a wonderful story and it’s quite clear that this man was a man of, it was quite a successful storyteller.

He weaved a lot of stories himself, didn’t he?

[00:11:02] Kim Loftus: Yeah.

Cadillac’s Transformation and Legacy

[00:11:02] Annie Sargent: So he decided to leave his home, Saint Nicolas de la Grave, and he made his way to the ocean, to get on a boat to go to America. Along the way, he had plenty of time to think and decided that Antoine Laumet was not quite good enough as a name, and that he should have a better persona, and so he took the name Lamothe because that was the count, that was the important person right around where he lived.

And then he later took the name Cadillac because he went through the village of Cadillac, which is a little South of Bordeaux, right? And thus the name Antoine Laumet Lamothe Cadillac. And she told us that along the way, on his way to the Americas, he made a whole persona. And where he was really smart, and this is something I learned reading the book, is that he didn’t make anything from, he didn’t make things up from whole cloth. He would base all his stories on real things, and real people. So that, you know, if anybody checked, they would find a person with that name.

Didn’t matter that he never met them and he had nothing to do with them. He based it, so he had real knowledge of the area.

And the other thing that was really important is that he had learned how to speak and write very good French because, back then, everybody spoke Occitan.

That was the language in most of France, as a matter of fact. But he had learned proper French, he could write it, he could read it, and he could impress people. So, when he showed up in the Americas with his new name, it was believable. His story was believable because he could read and write.

[00:12:41] Kim Loftus: And I think it’s also, back then, even if someone wanted to verify something, they’d have to write back to France, and it would take months, or maybe even years to get the communication back and forth. I think he must have known that as well. You know, people today create their persona or their influencer profile.

We know these sort of types of characters, I guess, you get sort of those modern terms, but back then they did the same thing when they wanted to create a life for themselves, there was lots of opportunity if you were willing to take huge risks and go someplace considered wild.

[00:13:15] Annie Sargent: It was.

[00:13:17] Kim Loftus: And that’s what he did.

Cadillac’s Life in America

[00:13:18] Annie Sargent: He shows up in Quebec and he meets his wife to be. And you learned a whole bunch about her, didn’t you?

[00:13:26] Kim Loftus: Yeah, she was an orphan early on, and so she was raised in Quebec City by nuns at a convent school for girls. But she had an aunt and uncle who also looked after her and lived in Quebec. And I think he was in business. And through her uncle, that’s how she was introduced to Cadillac, and eventually was married to him. I think she was 18 and he was 29 when they got married. And on that marriage document, that’s the first time that the world sees his new name and persona in its official. And that’s often part of the story is like, we know he was born Antoine Laumet, and then he became this whole other person when he was 29 on his marriage certificate.

[00:14:13] Annie Sargent: Right, and so that’s the first time he signed, that’s the first document we find today with the name Lamothe-Cadillac. But then, at the very end of his life, when he was selling some of his properties, so back in France, back in the southwest of France, the last deed he ever signed, he signed it Antoine Laumet Lamothe-Cadillac.

Because he could not pull off that weird persona in France. Like, they knew he was Antoine Laumet. There was no hiding it here. So, it was really, really funny to see that. But he still used both names to the end, you know, so really interesting guy.

[00:14:51] Kim Loftus: And Saint-Nicolas-de-la-Grave is what would have been a village then, and it still is considered a village today. Because it’s a small, very small, but that’s one of the charming things about it. It’s like, you know, there’s the four room Cadillac Museum. There’s the Victorian era marketplace structure.

And then there’s the church that is from the typical Toulouse style with the pink brick and it’s charming all in itself. It’s all in this little area and then the mayor’s office is in the Richard the Lionhearted castle, or at one point it was, and now it’s a public office building. So I thought, and the people, like that man who came and tried to help us, and then we went to the cafe, and it was all, he and his, the guys, that was a Friday morning I think, were having coffee and getting their day started, and he was there, and there’s animated conversation going, and then he walks off.

I loved it that he came back by later with this baguette under his arm, and then headed home after trying to be our hero in a way.

[00:15:56] Annie Sargent: No, he was really sweet. He was a very nice person. Everybody in the village was really kind to us. And then we moved on toCastelsarrasin, where Lamothe Cadillac finished his life. And now, I read the whole book and it is fascinating. The author of the book is René Tougeat and he did a really good job, because it’s readable.

A lot of these kind of historians that decide to take it upon themselves to write a book don’t do such a good job at the writing. He did really well. And he also really backed up all his assertions with original documents. And there’s photos of the original documents. They are a little bit hard to read because it’s, you know, even though he spoke and wrote good French, it’s aged a bit.

[00:16:40] Kim Loftus: Yeah. It’s old French, right? It’s only about 83 pages, but his primary sources are ideal to support the points he’s making. And he also has a bibliography that’s really good. And some of those go back, the oldest document, and that is quite old 1895, and that was a historian in Detroit who wrote the first book, probably English speaking book, Mr. Burton. He’s known in the Detroit area still, there’s the Burton Library, it’s a historical library at the Detroit Public Library.

[00:17:11] Annie Sargent: At any rate, a really fascinating life, the stuff he did,now he was really after money. He wanted to make it big. He wanted to become rich. I think that motivated a lot of people who went to the Americas, honestly. And he decided that he was going to do all sorts of trading, so they would trade furs with the natives and sell them goods.

And there was, I mean, there’s a lot of shenanigans in the book aboutcutting off supplies. You know, there were different places where you could buy things. And he was very astute about, oh, I don’t want them to buy from this guy, I want them to buy from me. So he would cut off supplies. He made a lot of friends, but he also made a lot of enemies, because he was doing things, I mean, he was ruthless, he wasvery ambitious, wanted to make money, would think nothing about lying, hiding, all sorts of things, you know, he just did a lot of things.

Challenges and Controversies

[00:18:07] Annie Sargent: He also went against what the Jesuits wanted him to do, because at the time the French were sending missionaries to try and convert the ‘savages’, they called them. And all through the book, all the references to the native peoples is savages.

It’s actually shocking to see it like that. It’s like, oh, really? These are people we’re talking about. But that’s how it was. And they really, the missionaries wanted to convert them, but wanted to keep them separate.

Like they wanted a lot of them, but they didn’t want to mix with them. And they definitely did not want European women to marry,or European men to marry native peoples. But that’s what Lamothe wanted. He thought, look, we need people. We need more people. Without people, there’s no business.

[00:18:58] Kim Loftus: I think he also thought that if a native person and a European married, that would be more likely that they would remain in North America, in New France, and establish a farm or a business and grow their family, and it would stabilize it. I think that was his theory, but it was apparently not missionary approved.

[00:19:21] Annie Sargent: And also there’s a whole thing about the Iroquois, I’m not sure what was happening there. Do you know very much about that? Because they seem to be, like ruling over other tribes and at war with other tribes.

[00:19:33] Kim Loftus: Yeah, there was all those tribes. There are numerous tribes: Iroquois, Huron, Ojibwa, and probably many others, I’m not as well versed in all those, but they also were probably, just like anywhere else, trying to protect their territory, their rich trading ground, resources, or hunting grounds. And then as the Europeans arrived, one of the things I read was, Cadillac was really good at establishing relationships with the tribes, and trying to keep peace amongst all of them, along with histroops that came with him, I’ve forgotten what, they have a term for the group that came with him, but he had to try to constantly keep the peace and keep everyone happy.

So he may have had to make agreements with one tribe, and then it would have been another. And by the time Cadillac leaves in 1710, I believe, we’re starting to get into like more English is arriving and there’s more battles, especially on the east coast for the territory. And eventually it leads to the, what originally was called the French Indian War, and it was about Canada. When Canada eventually lost to the English, New France was no more.

[00:20:42] Annie Sargent: Hmm.

[00:20:42] Kim Loftus: That comes much later after Cadillac is done. But it took, you know, like a century to lead up to the final battle that the French lost to the English.

[00:20:51] Annie Sargent: Yeah, so when he started out, it was, the very first way he got himself noticed is because he was very good at taking notes and drawing maps. And so he would travel looking for hunting for furs and things like that, and he would make notes and draw maps, and then he would be able to go back to Quebec, and Quebec City, and then he could just report and show them what he had seen. And that was invaluable.

Then he made several trips back and forth to France, between Canada and France, and when he would show up in France, he would go back to France, but to Paris, not to the Southwest. And there he could tell them a story because how would they know? And he always told a great story about all the savages, and the landscapes, and the riches and all of that stuff.

And he was believable because he had been there. He knew a lot of things. Imagine a world with no TV, no radios, no nothing, no entertainment. And you have some guy who shows up and you can tell you tales of the Wild West and Canada and places like that. I mean, they loved him. They ate it up. Yeah.

[00:21:59] Kim Loftus: It’s very interesting when he grew up, you know, in this little village, maybe went to the nearby schools. That’s probably where he learned French, but he must have been incredibly eloquent and smart because of his ability to convince people, be persuasive, tell these stories, knew what they wanted to hear, because he had audiences with Louis XIV, and the Minister of the Marine, who gave him ships to go back and forth, and resources and assigned men to him. It’s just fascinating that he was able to do all this.

[00:22:31] Annie Sargent: Right, he kept being promoted. So he started out small, but then he ended up, being the top guy, even though there were a lot of people, even at his time were saying, you know what, this guy is fishy. He’s awfully greedy and he does things that we don’t approve of.

But still, you know, he was doing a good enough job that they let him get away with it. And it’s incredible that he took 50 soldiers and 50 savages, as he called them, and they decided to make their way to Detroit, from Quebec, with canoes and everything on their backs. And when they arrived, it was early July, I think.

So they left, oh yeah, they left on June 5th and they arrived around July 20th, more or less. And they knew that they had to establish something, you know, they had to do something before it got super cold, and they worked very, very hard and survived the winter.

And one of the things that made life difficult for a lot of the people who, a lot of the Europeans who went to the Americas, is that they were a bit stubborn and they wanted to grow the same kind of crops that they were used to in Europe and it didn’t work.

And he was more willing to learn from the locals. And so they were able to quickly have some crops and survive. Because I mean, you know, if you have no food, it’s over kind of quickly.

[00:23:56] Kim Loftus: Right. And I think they utilized, they took great advantage of the fur trade, which allowed them to trade with the native peoples and then send those materials back to France. And so they kept showing the king and the other leaders of the government how well off this area was, and that there’s resources here that would benefit France.

[00:24:19] Annie Sargent: Yeah. But that’s why they, you know, it was greed, they want to take over. I mean, there’s no question about that.

So then, we’re going to go move through this quickly, then he was no longer welcome in the Detroit area because he had just annoyed a few too many people, and it got to the point where, you know…

And another thing that he did that was completely against the rules is that he would happily sell alcohol to the native tribes, which was not okay by the French king, but he did it anyway, because that’s what he could easily sell and trade.

And of course, he poisoned them. It was just, he was ruthless, I mean, he would do whatever to advance.

[00:24:58] Kim Loftus: Yeah.

[00:24:59] Annie Sargent: Like anything, he would do anything. (Mid-roll ad spot)

Cadillac’s Return to France

[00:25:03] Annie Sargent: So eventually he leaves Canada to come back to France. Well, he leaves Canada, Detroit, I guess we should call it at this point.

I mean, it wasn’t yet the US.

[00:25:15] Kim Loftus: He went back, they recalled him, I think is what I remember. He, the king or the minister of the Marines said, come back here, we’ve got to investigate what’s happening. And that was around 1710. And this is where he was so persuasive.

Governor of Louisiana

[00:25:31] Kim Loftus: Instead of getting in trouble, he becomes appointed governor of Louisiana.

Which was a new, another territory of France, and it was uninhabited at that point. But he wasn’t happy about that.

[00:25:42] Annie Sargent: No. No. So yes, they removed him from the Detroit area because he was a pain and called him back to Paris. Didn’t know what to do with him. And they decided, okay, we’re going to stick him with Louisiana. Like you said, it was very inhospitable. There were no people there. He did business with a guy in Toulouse called Crozat.

So we still have a big Crozat family in Toulouse. They own a lot of businesses, but he robbed him blind because he just told him a, you know, song and dance about all the things that they were going to find in Louisiana. He had never set foot in Louisiana himself, so he knew nothing, but he sold it.

He really, really sold it. And he raised money and once he got there, he realized, ooh, uh…

[00:26:27] Kim Loftus: He did not like it.

[00:26:28] Annie Sargent: No, he did not like it. He didn’t want to stay. At the same time, the king was also doing a very unethical kind of business transaction, where he would sell to hopefuls who wanted a piece of the Louisiana fortune. Gold mines and you know, wealth untold, he would sell them shares. And they feared that if he, when he came back to France, having seen Louisiana, he would open his yap and kind of, you know…

[00:27:00] Kim Loftus: Yeah, because I think he said it like it was sometimes.

[00:27:03] Annie Sargent: Yes, he sure did.

And so they, when he and his son came back from Louisiana, they just put him in the Bastille, for about six months to shut him up.

[00:27:12] Kim Loftus: That was in 1717. He and his son, who is now a young man, were there for six months until they got everything cleared and then it was like, okay, let him out because he won’t, it won’t interfere with our plans anymore.

[00:27:25] Annie Sargent: Right.

Final Years in France

[00:27:25] Annie Sargent: And so he goes back to the Southwest, having boughta appointment as the governor of Castelsarrasin, which is the bigger town next to where he was born. And he didn’t like it that much. So he kept going back to Paris. He spent most of his time in Paris. His wife, however, stayed in Saint-Nicolas-de-la-Grave.

And she was like, I’m done with you. I’m staying here.

[00:27:50] Kim Loftus: And they had a daughter by then who was married and grandchildren.

[00:27:53] Annie Sargent: Yeah.

[00:27:54] Kim Loftus: Like an extended family.

[00:27:56] Annie Sargent: Yes. Yes. And this is a family that was a bit complicated because one of the reasons why he left France is because his older brother was suing his parents for some sort of inheritance. There was a lot of bad blood in the family. You know, these are not people who are getting along, you know, no, no, no, no.

And so he wasn’t so sure that he wanted to be back in the Southwest, but that’s where he had connections. You know, he was getting older, and he was like, well, I got connections here, and so he ended up going to the Southwest. There’s one point at the end of the book where they explained that his daughter was getting married in Castelsarrasin, but he did not attend the wedding because he was in Paris and he didn’t want to come back for the wedding.

Cadillac’s Death and Legacy

[00:28:42] Annie Sargent: And a little bit later, he had to come back, a few days after that, well, maybe a few weeks after that, he had to come back to sign some sell of something or other, and that’s the one time, that’s the last time we see him signing Antoine Laumet Lamothe Cadillac. And that’s on the occasion of that trip that he died in the house.

So it said, what we heard was that he died in the house that had been appointed to the governor.

Right?

[00:29:09] Kim Loftus: L’Hotel Bouvinard.

[00:29:10] Annie Sargent: Which was a beautiful home in Castelsarrasin that we got to visit.

The Mystery of Cadillac’s Grave

[00:29:15] Annie Sargent: But according to the book, it’s not clear where he died.The book doesn’t make it very clear.

And the book also explains that they’re not sure where he’s buried. We tried to find his grave. We drove around trying to find his grave.

[00:29:28] Kim Loftus: There are several resources that say he was buried at the cemetery of a Carmelite church, and there’s like a tower left, and so we had two different locations and ended up in, one was an orchard, and one was a private residence. It didn’t look like it was ever anything else, so where he’s buried is a bit of a mystery.

[00:29:48] Annie Sargent: At the end of the book, the author says that they were trying to find his grave as well, because it says, just like his parents, he was buried at the Église des Carmes, so the Carmes Church in the city, which it’s not a church anymore. And that they dug up this old area a few years ago, looking for bones that they could test, they could do DNA testing.

And they thought they were close to finding the right bones, but there was a violation of the sepulchre.

[00:30:21] Kim Loftus: I read that, too.

[00:30:22] Annie Sargent: And they stopped digging.

[00:30:23] Kim Loftus: They weren’t allowed to continue.

[00:30:25] Annie Sargent: Right. So, we don’t know.

[00:30:26] Kim Loftus: It was fun to try to find it, because we ended up in parts of the village, like I said, we drove through that orchard and it was lovely, and it was early spring, but we were like, I don’t think this is a cemetery.

[00:30:38] Annie Sargent: No, it wasn’t. No, it wasn’t.

A Tour of Cadillac’s House

[00:30:39] Annie Sargent: So it was an interesting day, and we talked to some lovely people, and we saw some lovely things, and we had to go back to the house where he was living because that was also pretty funny. The lady, so I had contacted her as well, and so we knocked on the door and I introduced myself and said, I’m the one who left your message, whatever.

And she was very welcoming, and she explained that she would show us the house, even though it’s not open to the public, really. It’s a private residence, but it’s a big place and she rents part of it as a gîte.

[00:31:10] Kim Loftus: And it’s for sale.

[00:31:11] Annie Sargent: Yes.

[00:31:12] Kim Loftus: The next time someone goes there, may be opened as something more public, or maybe not at all.

[00:31:18] Annie Sargent: Yep. I thought it was a gorgeous house, like a very typical old French house with a lot of beautiful staircases, beautiful doors, beautiful rooms with high ceilings, exposed beams.

[00:31:30] Kim Loftus: And I think of it, it’s like, it was constructed in two phases. The older part, where I think Cadillac would have lived, is in the back, and it’s a typical, I read it, they referred to it as a mansion, or an estate. So it’s like a square shaped building with a courtyard in the middle or a garden.

And then the front, which was constructed almost a century later, repeated that same pattern, but connected the two sections. And one faces the street. So on the street side where we entered, there is a plaque that talks about the history of the building and how it was built in two phases. But when you, and you walk through what would have been like a carriage entryway, that big arched cobblestone entryway. And that’s the newer part of the building, which was18th century. And to go upstairs was that grand staircase, and there was a private apartment up there that she was able to show us with permission from the owner who wasn’t home, and we wandered through that, and there is an alcove in a room, that they, the owner said they thought that that was possibly where Cadillac may have, this might have been his private apartment and died. But then when I read the plaque outside, that’s the new, that would have been constructed after he was there.Her private apartment was in the back that she did take us in, it actually did look older and it overlooked the beautiful courtyard and it had a square tower in one of the corners, which her bedroom was off of. And there was a private chapel in that tower off the bedroom. I think that’s probably more likely where he would have occupied his own private apartment.

[00:33:09] Annie Sargent: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Although it’s pretty clear from the book that he wasn’t very religious himself. He had kind of bad relationship with the Jesuits. So, you know, I mean, at the time you had to bow to them, but you didn’t play along a lot. I doubt he was the kind that would spend a lot of time in that chapel.

But there is a very interesting private chapel. It’s very small. And it has this interesting window where you can see out, but they cannot see in.

[00:33:38] Kim Loftus: Right, and it’s plain on the outside that faces the courtyard, but it’s brilliant colors on the inside. And I looked up, the religious wars would have been well before that was constructed, but his wife was very religious, so perhaps he had that put in place for her. I think the decoration is from the Belle Epoque era, late 1800s Victorian era. But it still was, it was fun because she pulled back this drape and there was a door, and then you went in this little chapel that’s painted and it hasn’t been touched in a long time.

And even the items on the altar were from that era. It was just like, wow, it’s very cool.

[00:34:17] Annie Sargent: Yes, yes. And we got to see all this just because I asked them. It was just asking, you know, can we? Of course, they don’t speak English, really, but they were very interested in having American visitors show interest in this area, because that doesn’t happen every day.

And she is trying to sell the house, so she’s like, oh, maybe some rich American will show up and buy this.

The Cadillac Museum and Its Challenges

[00:34:37] Kim Loftus: Yeah, I think. I wondered because it’s for sale, it was for half a million euro, was the price tag because it’s a very large property. But then the Cadillac Museum too is also trying to raise money to renovate. The Cadillac Museum, I forgot to mention that, one of the things that I thought was fascinating is that the courtyard behind the house is a Michigan Historic Site plaque, which is the only one outside of the state of Michigan. And on one side it’s in English and one side it’s in French. And that was installed in 1984. But the museum ran a fundraiser in ’72, and the Detroit Historical Society and Commission gave them 20000 in ’72 to buy the house and establish that as a museum.

But they now need another investment because they need to upgrade it. They want to enhance that courtyard, and I think she said install public restrooms in there. It’s a village, so there probably aren’t any.

[00:35:38] Annie Sargent: Yeah. So the Historical Society of Michigan actually raised the funds, bought the house, and then deeded it back to the city. So now the house belongs to the city. They did a lot of improvements and the museum looks really nice. If you are in the area and you’re interested in visiting it, I would definitely call ahead of time to make sure it’s open.

Don’t believe what it says on their website. It lies.

[00:36:06] Kim Loftus: It’s too small.

It’s just so small.

[00:36:08] Annie Sargent: They don’t update the website very much, so just call, okay? You have to be proactive like that. But they are very happy to have visitors and to open it up.

Now, in July and August it’s a pretty good bet that it will be open most days, because it’s actually two interns that keep it open. The department, or the region, I’m not sure, has funding to pay interns to open monuments like this that are not open to the public the rest of the year. And so that’s why it’s open every day in July and August. But the rest, that’s because the interns are there.

And the interns, you know, they don’t know as much about the history. But there are a lot of signs and things that you can read that explain the story. But the lady who gave us the private tour was quite, she was very good, I thought.

[00:36:56] Kim Loftus: I was going to say, I would recommend that someone call that main number and request Madame Jacqueline and she was very knowledgeable. I think she explained she was a retired teacher. She lives in this village now, but I don’t think she always has, but she knows his story and is very passionate about talking about life at that time.

And she utilizes everything in the museum to tell that story. They talk about not only his life, but what it was like in New France, why France was interested in the resources in what was then France, which is Canada, and parts of the Great Lakes region, where I’m from. So she does a really, she has a very passionate way of telling her story and engaging you, and you can tell lots of her visitors probably are school groups, because they have a lot of things they use to talk with kids about how a kid their age may have lived in the house and what they would have done with different items that, you know, looking at them, you would wonder, like, what is that?

But that’s part of the fun, is exploring what did people need in their home at that time to survive and get by.

[00:38:03] Annie Sargent: Yeah, she explained that she was a history teacher, history and geography teacher, but retired, and because her daughter lives in Toulouse, she wanted to be close to her daughter, and so she moved to the village of Saint-Nicolas-de-la-Grave, and has been very interested in the history of the village, and she’s very good.

Jacqueline was her name, huh? Yes.

[00:38:25] Kim Loftus: Her name was Danielle Jacqueline.

[00:38:27] Annie Sargent: Danielle Jacqueline, okay.

[00:38:29] Kim Loftus:

The Mayor was Monsieur Labouchet.

[00:38:31] Annie Sargent: He was also very, he had a beautifulGascon, kind of facial hair, like a little goatee and a mustache. Yeah, he was very Gascon looking.

[00:38:42] Kim Loftus: I would say, you know, to me as an American, he was a very elegant Frenchman.

[00:38:47] Annie Sargent: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And everybody was lovely. I mean, honestly, a cute village. This is the sort of place that’s not super showy. I wouldn’t say to everybody who comes visit Toulouse, oh, you must go visit this place, it’s amazing, you know, nothing like that. But it is very interesting and the people are super friendly.

[00:39:04] Kim Loftus: Yeah, and there’s a lot there.

Visiting Nearby Villages and Activities

[00:39:06] Kim Loftus: Like we were just there for a few hours, but it’s on the Confluence of the Garonne and Tarn Rivers. When I was on the website, after I got home, it looks like there’s a lot of outdoor activities because it’s on the water and it’s a very nature environmental setting.

So if you like to hike and kayak, you can do that there.

[00:39:24] Annie Sargent: Yeah, it’s ideal for people who want to go camping, and just have an inexpensive vacation in a French village, that’s going to be friendly and interesting with kids. We also went to, so the city of Castelsarrasin is a little bit bigger, very cute. Like it’s the same, it’s really cute, really friendly.

If you wanted to spend some time there to explore, it would be a good place. I think for people who don’t have a big budget, but just want to hang for a week, I think it would be fun to just look around, take hikes, take bike rides, things like that. That’s the sort of activities you can do there.

[00:40:00] Kim Loftus: Well, I love these smaller villages, and you can make it a day, or you could spend a night and explore, like these three places over two days because there’s wonderful places to eat, there’s interesting things to explore, you can take it at your own pace, you can do some outdoors things as well as indoor things.

And even, I thought it was interesting that Saint-Nicolas-de-la-Grave seems to have more interesting historic things than Castelsarrasin, even though it’s bigger.

We didn’t go, but there is a museum dedicated to the pioneer of modern advertising in Castelsarrasin, Fermin Bousset, and he did a lot of really iconic ads for, I think, chocolate and some biscuits, at that time, that we still, they sell the reproductions of them.

And there’s a museum dedicated to him. I don’t know if he designed that building there, but that’s what I love. Like there’s these little things like, oh, if I’d only known.

Stay for a night, you could be, you might find it the next day, you could go back before you leave.

[00:41:03] Annie Sargent: Yeah.

Moissac

[00:41:03] Kim Loftus: Moissac too, it’s like there’s so much probably to do, but that Abbey and the cloisters, and then that outdoor Café, that’s really all we had time for, there’s plenty more.

[00:41:15] Annie Sargent: Moissac is a beautiful place. The abbey is spectacular. And there are a lot of pilgrims that come through Moissac, so they have a lot of accommodations, again some very nice and some very cheap, but I think it’s, I mean, Moissac is, did we ever do an episode about Moissac per se?

We might have.

[00:41:35] Kim Loftus:

What’s so nice about this area is, you could stay in Toulouse, we did a day trip to, originally, it was just destined for two cities, Saint-Nicolas-de-la-Grave and Castelsarrasin. Ended up with more time, because we couldn’t go to the museum that first trip, we ended up in Moissac for a bit.

And then there was that pilgrimage site up on a hill with saint Mary. Oh, I forgot about that, too. Like, it was a beautiful view that day, and the flowers were blooming all around there. So, you just end up with, like, all these things to explore, and that’s what I love about France.

Montauban: A City of History and Renovation

[00:42:08] Kim Loftus: And it’s like, you can stay central, but all around the area, another city, if I was going to go back, Montauban is another interesting looking city nearby in that same area.

The more you look up things, the more you find there is to do that you didn’t get to do that one trip.

[00:42:25] Annie Sargent: Yeah, so we did episode 354. I named it ‘What’s special about Moissac’.

And Montauban, we’ve done one about Montauban as well. And I was just in Montauban just last week with another day trip that I did with three people. Montauban was episode 348. It’s a really cute town. So in the episode, I was a little bit down on it saying, you know, they were in the middle of renovations, everything was closed. It didn’t go well. Because I went to visit it just before we recorded, just so I would remember. Because you have to understand, I have been going to Montauban since I was a child. My very close first cousins live there. And so, we would go sometimes every weekend to spend, you know, to have lunch with them on a Sunday or something.

So to me, it felt like I knew it well, but I didn’t really. So I went back and it was, that day was not good. It was, everything was closed, blah, blah, blah. So I told my cousin, I’m like, you know, it sucks really. It’s just like, no, no, it’s not that bad, come back, and we made a whole day of it.

And we went on market day on a Saturday. And she showed us around, and the Place Nationale was not finished yet, but it was fine. We had a lovely day with her. And then I went back last week. By now, all the renovations are done. Place Nationale is wonderful. They put in this kind of water mirror like they have in Bordeaux, it’s a water feature and you have little kids running through, there was a young lady who was dancing and just having a grand time, you know, she must have had music in her head because she was really going to town dancing in the water.

It’s just a really cute place. I wish we had taken the time to just sit and have a drink there, but the people I was with wanted to keep moving. So we did that.

Famous Figures from Montauban, Ingres Bourdelle Museum

[00:44:08] Annie Sargent: We also went to the Ingres Bourdelle Museum. They have three people that were very famous that were born in Montauban.

They have Ingres, the painter, Bourdelle, the sculptor. There’s even a Bourdelle Museum in Paris. So that tells you something, I mean, he has a Paris museum dedicated to him.

And also, Olympe de Gouges was from Montauban, and she was a revolutionary, the feminist revolutionary, and we also did an episode about her.

[00:44:36] Kim Loftus: I was reading about Montauban and all these great people who are from there. For me, like, historic persons are so interesting, and I love Ingres paintings, and his story is interesting. I was like, yeah, that’s a someday go to visit city.

[00:44:51] Annie Sargent: Yeah, yeah. So Olympe de Gouges, it was episode 439 and just a fascinating character. I wish they had more about Olympe de Gouges in Montauban. They have a theater named after her and right across from it is a mural dedicated to her. But since she was a writer, and a philosopher, it’s hard to show people, you know, what do you show people?

[00:45:16] Kim Loftus: Yeah. Was she the author of ‘The Rights of Women’?

[00:45:19] Annie Sargent: Yes, yes.

And she wrote a lot of pamphlets. She was just a really interesting person. You know, it’s a lot of interesting stuff to do. And of course, you can explore these things on your own, like you could rent your own car. As a matter of fact, you could go to, I think Castelsarrasin has a train, but Saint-Nicolas-de-la-Grave does not. Montauban also has a train. So you could do some of them by train. Moissac has a train as well. But some of them you need to rent a car, or hire me to do a day trip with you like these, you know, these groups did. There’s just never ending things to discover in the southwest of France, just like the rest of France, really, if we’re honest.

Cadillac’s Legacy and the Car Connection

[00:45:59] Kim Loftus: Well, and you didn’t know, I think when we first started talking about this, you weren’t aware of Cadillac and his significance to the region and then to Michigan.

[00:46:07] Annie Sargent: We don’t learn about him.

[00:46:09] Kim Loftus: Most people know him, that name, by the car, the Cadillac automobile, you know, when they developed that automobile, they gave that name to him because of the prestige of his accomplishments. They honored him by naming the car, and the logo of the car is derived from his coat of arms that he created from all these family coat of arms that he took some element of and made his own.

[00:46:34] Annie Sargent: Yeah, he made his own.

[00:46:35] Kim Loftus: Yeah.

[00:46:36] Annie Sargent: In the museum, they talk about Cadillac, the car company. And I’ve since found out that they don’t sell Cadillacs in France. I don’t know if they ever did, but now they’re selling the new Cadillac Lyric, the electric Cadillac in France. And so it’s a bit expensive.

[00:46:53] Kim Loftus: Oh yeah. Well, they’re a top of the line automobile.

[00:46:56] Annie Sargent: Yeah, I think it’s like 70,000 Euros. And I have a perfectly fine electric car already so I don’t need a new one. But when I do, I might look at the Cadillac Lyric because it looks fabulous. Oh, that car looks good.

[00:47:10] Kim Loftus: Nice. Yeah. My husband and I grew up in Michigan and we were like about the same age and said, you know, we remember learning about Michigan history, but Cadillac was just always a name that we knew of, not necessarily knew about his history. So that was part of the fun of when I started looking into like, who was he really?

And I have this affiliation with France and it’s like, wow, this is perfect. I’m so excited. There’s someone from, has a Michigan connection to the places I’m going and it made it all the more fun and…

[00:47:42] Annie Sargent: I’m really delighted that we went because I learned so much. Like, this guy’s interesting, you know, of his own right. Just a very interesting person and you learn about a lot about the history of France and how things were done back then.

And I mean, my hat off to all the people who left for the Americas, because that was difficult. That was not an easy thing to do at the time.

Conclusion and Farewell

[00:48:07] Annie Sargent: All right, Kim, I think we’ve been chatting too long. We need tostop now, but thank you so very much for, you know, you’ve been on the bootcamp twice, we’ve done this day trip together. You feel like you’re family now, so thank you very much.

[00:48:20] Kim Loftus: It’s been great. Thank you so much. The day trip with you made it so easy. I didn’t have to worry about navigating anywhere. You were the driver, and so it was great fun. We had some great food.

[00:48:31] Annie Sargent: Yep. Yep. It was all good. Merci beaucoup Kim!

[00:48:33] Kim Loftus: Yeah. Merci. Au revoir.

Thank you Patrons

[00:48:43] Annie Sargent: Again, I want to thank my patrons for giving back and supporting the show. Patreon supporters get new episodes as soon as they are ready and ad-free. If that sounds good to you, be like them, follow the link in the show notes.

Patrons get more exclusive rewards for all their support, you can see them at patreon.com/joinus. And to support Elyse, go to patreon.com/ElysArt.

Although I don’t have any new patrons to welcome this week, I’m incredibly grateful for the continued support from all of you. Your backing makes it possible for me to keep creating content I’m passionate about. Every bit of support helps the show. And speaking of every little bit helps, now that Black Friday and Christmas are just around the corner, if you’d like to support the podcast and discover some of my favorite travel products, head over to joinusinfrance.com/Amazon. Every purchase made through this link helps us bringing you more great content and it will not cost you anything extra. Perhaps you could bookmark this page so you don’t forget, and thank you for your support.

No tour reviews

[00:50:02] Annie Sargent: And I’m not going to be reading any reviews of my tours this week either because I’m recording this early, but there are hundreds of reviews on my tours, go to joinusinfrance.com/vmr. That stands for VoiceMap Reviews. There you go.

Itinerary consultations

[00:50:21] Annie Sargent: And I also offer two levels of itinerary consultations on Zoom to help you plan your trip, again, just go to the boutique to see the details. I’m not going to be doing that while I’m away on my cruise, but I will continue to do that going forward.

Must-have items in your bag in Paris

[00:50:37] Annie Sargent: Okay, let’s talk about must have items in your bag or purse. When exploring Paris, or France, or anywhere really, you want to balance being prepared with staying light. Here are the essentials that you’ll need in your bag to make the most of your precious time on vacation.

First thing is a water bottle. Staying hydrated is crucial. Sometimes I’ve seen visitors who look like they might be fainting any moment and it might have to do with the fact that they’re not drinking enough, especially during long walks or visits to monuments or things like that. Paris has public water fountains. They’re called Wallace fountains, most of them, some of them are other types of water fountains, but you need to bring your own refillable water to use them. Just make sure it’s small, no more than half a liter, or about a pint and keep filling it up throughout the day. I think that’s the best way to do it.

The second thing you need is a portable phone charger. You’re likely to use your phone a lot for maps, photos, notes, VoiceMap, so bring a fully charged portable power bank to avoid running out of juice.

The third thing is a travel umbrella, or a poncho, or something because Paris weather is unpredictable. A compact foldable umbrella or poncho can be a lifesaver during sudden rain showers. This is not something you’ll need every day in Paris, look for weather predictions for each day. But it rains in Paris. That’s a fact of life.

Number four is metro tickets or transport card. For Paris, either get a Navigo Easy Pass, it’s a credit card looking thing with a chip that you can recharge at any machine, or you can buy and validate your tickets with your smartphone using the Bonjour RATP app on both Android and iPhone. So Bonjour, just like the greeting, RATP. The app also gives you bus and metro traffic information and route planning.

Right now, this also works on the app called IDF Mobilités app. So, IDF, Ile de France, IDF, mobilities, but it’s spelled in French, mobilités, with an es at the end.

I’m sure eventually all the navigation apps will do this, like I was saying last week, apps are the way the whole travel industry is going.

Number five, you need comfortable shoes, though technically not in your bag. It’s vital to mention, Paris is a city best explored on foot. It’s the most important travel implement you will need is good shoes, so wear good shoes that you can wear comfortably to walk and stand in for hours.

Number six, sunglasses and sunscreen. If you’re visiting during the sunny weather, Paris’ open squares and riverbanks can be a quite bright, protect your skin and eyes with sunscreen and sunglasses. And I think they make very small little things of sunscreen. But in my case, I have kind of olive skin in the summer anyway, and so for me, if I just apply it in the morning usually it’s sufficient, but that might not be enough for you, so, come prepared.

Number seven, a reusable shopping bag. This is useful for carrying any unexpected purchases from street markets or shops, and a foldable one will not take much space.

Number eight, ID and copy of passport. Keep a photocopy of your passport in your bag in case of emergency. Another form of ID that’s even better is your driver’s license.

And I say driver’s license because it can be easily replaced if you should lose it or it should get stolen. Also a passport ID card is a good thing to have. When you order your next passport, remember to include a request for a passport card.

Number nine, hand sanitizer and tissues for hygiene on the go, especially when public restrooms are scarce. And my friend Patricia, she always carries a tiny little bottle of a spray, it’s a hand washing spray. And so I went to the pharmacy and they sold me something liquid, it’s not a gel, it is a alcohol liquid with some drops of scented oils and it smells very good and it does a good job. It’s very, very small. I think hers is like maybe five milliliters or something. I have little circular ones of 20 milliliters and you know, just a few sprays on the go and you’re good to go. And you don’t have that goopy feeling in your hands.

Other things you might want, a snack, I mean, you know, you could buy them as well, but there are times when, you know, packing a few small snacks make sense.

I’m kind of partial to M&Ms. I’m a terrible example, ain’t I?

My thanks to podcast editors Anne and Christian Cotovan, who produced the transcripts.

Next week on the podcast

[00:55:56] Annie Sargent: Next week on the podcast, an episode about the other chateaus of the Loire Valley with Paul Gulesserian, who lives in the area and has great recommendations.

And remember patrons get an ad-free version of this episode, click on the link in the show notes to be like them.

Thank you so much for listening, and I hope you join me next time so we can look around France together. Au revoir.

Copyright

[00:56:22] Annie Sargent: The Join Us in France travel podcast is written, hosted, and produced by Annie Sargent and Copyright 2024 by AddictedToFrance. It is released under a Creative Commons, attribution, non-commercial, no derivatives license.

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Transcript for Episode 515: The French Explorer Who Founded Detroit: Lamothe Cadillac