Table of Contents for this Episode
Discussed in this Episode
[00:00:00] Annie Sargent:
[00:00:16] Annie Sargent: This is Join Us in France, episode 468, quatre cent soixante huit.
[00:00:23] Bonjour, I’m Annie Sargent, and Join Us in France is the podcast where we talk about France, everyday life in France, great places to visit in France, French culture, history, gastronomy, and news related to travel to France.
Today on the podcast: Family Vacation on the Riviera
[00:00:37] Annie Sargent: Today, I bring you a trip report with Jessica Osborne about beach hopping on the Riviera.
[00:00:44] Jessica has been a dedicated Francophile for years and a listener of this podcast for five years. Last time I talked to her, we recorded an episode about her vacation in the French Alps with her baby.
[00:00:56] The baby is now four years old and, I never met a child who did not love to spend time on the beach. So that’s what they did. They went to several beaches along the Riviera, including Cannes, Antibes, Nice, Villefranche-sur-Mer, Beaulieu-sur-Mer, and Saint-Jean-Cap-Ferrat. Oh, also Menton, and she has some things to say about Monaco.
[00:01:19] Perhaps you’re considering visiting these beaches with your own children?
[00:01:23] This episode is definitely for you.
[00:01:26] And for those of you who’ve never been to the Riviera you should listen as well because you’ll learn a lot, and if you just want to dream about going to the Riviera, hmm, welcome to this episode.
[00:01:37] Annie Sargent: This podcast is supported by donors and listeners who buy my tours and services including my Itinerary Consult Service, my GPS self-guided tours of Paris on the VoiceMap app, or take a day trip with me around the southwest of France in my wonderful electric car. You can browse all of that at my boutique JoinUsInFrance.com/boutique.
[00:02:01] I’ll play a voice review from a very happy customer of my itinerary service and GPS tours after the interview.
2024 Bootcamp Update
[00:02:11] Annie Sargent: And today, I’ll also tell you about the France bootcamp 2024. Tickets are already on sale for those of you who were on the waiting list, this weekend I’ll open it to patrons and next weekend, it’ll be open to everyone.
[00:02:28] Stay tuned and decide if this in person event is for you. Just this week, Kim Loftus, who was at the bootcamp in 2023, told me she is going on a trip to Montreal with friends she made at the bootcamp, which was really, you know, I was really happy to hear that, because we could all use more in person friends, and the bootcamp was definitely a good way to meet wonderful people.
Annie and Jessica
[00:03:05] Annie Sargent: Bonjour, Jessica Osborne, and welcome to Join Us in France.
[00:03:10] Jessica Osborn: Bonjour, Annie. Thanks for having me. I’m excited to chat with you again.
[00:03:14] Yes, yes, wonderful to talk to you again, I don’t remember what episode number you were on?So, last time we talked, we talked about traveling to France with a baby, and now my daughter, Noelle, is five years old, so I can talk about traveling with a kid!
[00:03:30] Annie Sargent: Fantastic, fantastic! Well, and today’s episode is going to be very, very fun because we’re going to be talking about beach hopping on the French Riviera. How lovely is that? Did you really do that?
Beach hopping on the French Riviera
[00:03:43] Jessica Osborn: Yes, we did that! Last July, 2022. And for those who don’t know me, I live in Arizona with my husband, my daughter, and we have a beagle named Louis. And the summers here can get really hot. They can get into the triple digits. So we escaped the heat for, I guess, more of a humid heat wave in France when we were there.
[00:04:03] But, but luckily there’s the Mediterranean Sea that we could swim in and jump in when it got too hot and humid.
[00:04:11] Annie Sargent: Right. So, where did you go? Tell us all about it.
[00:04:15] Jessica Osborn: Yes. Okay. So we were actually in Europe for a month. We spent our first half in Italy.
From Italy to France by train
[00:04:20] Jessica Osborn: So we came from Florence. We took a seven hour train ride to Nice. It’s a long ride, but it’s relaxing. We caught up on sleep, and reading, and I just got to walk around the train cars and explore the countryside.
[00:04:35] So it was really enjoyable. And then we stayed in Nice.
[00:04:38] Annie Sargent: Can you tell me a little bit about the differences between train service in France and Italy? Was it pretty much the same or?
[00:04:45] Jessica Osborn: That’s a good question. It felt the same, and I’m not sure, I think it was an Italian train car, because it started from France that took us to Nice, but everything was on time. Everything was clean. And there are minimal stops. It was really enjoyable. But I would say, you know, my general experience, the French train car systems seem to run more on time.
Staying at an Apartment in Nice
[00:05:08] Annie Sargent: Mm hmm. Very good. Okay, so you went from Florence to Nice, and then where did you stay in Nice?
[00:05:17] Jessica Osborn: Yeah, so we stayed in an apartment because we were staying there for eight nights.
[00:05:24] I’ll send the apartment in the show notes, I don’t know the name offhand, but it was a great location. It was a five minute walk to the beach, a ten minute walk to the train station, and then it was right across the street from a pedestrian area called Rue de France.
[00:05:39] Annie Sargent: Oh, yeah.
[00:05:40] Jessica Osborn: So you’ve heard of it, so there’s lots of cafes and shopping and a little market as well that we would pick up groceries in.
[00:05:47] Annie Sargent: Right. It’s parallel what’s it called in Nice? It’s called the Boardwalk, the
[00:05:51] Jessica Osborn: Yeah, the Promenade des Anglais, I think.
[00:05:54] Annie Sargent: Promenade des Anglais, of course, of course. Yes.
[00:05:56] Jessica Osborn: Yeah. So what we decided to do was, since we were going to be there for a little over a week, we wanted to explore the different towns and beaches. so every morning, or most mornings, we would grab our croissants and then work our way to the train station. Very busy in the summer, so we just, we had to get aggressive and push our way onto the trains to make them on time.
[00:06:18] And then we just hopped around to the different towns and beaches.
[00:06:21] Annie Sargent: Right. And I assume since your daughter is five, you weren’t using a stroller.
[00:06:25] Jessica Osborn: No, no stroller. We made her walk. She did a great job too.
[00:06:30] Annie Sargent: She’s a good little traveler.
[00:06:31] Jessica Osborn: Yeah, yeah, I think so. We would make up songs along the way, when we’re walking. And I think Pain au Chocolat, that helped motivate her to keep going.
[00:06:42] Annie Sargent: Yes, it does. If not a chocolatine, then, you know, perhaps an ice cream or a crêpe perhaps. Kids tend to like those as well.
[00:06:51] Jessica Osborn: Yes. Oh, and the ice cream, we had, I mean, maybe two to four times a day. So we got our fill of that.
[00:07:00] Annie Sargent: That’s wonderful.
[00:07:01] Okay, so which towns did you go beach hopping to?
Taking the train to Cannes
[00:07:06] Jessica Osborn: Yeah, and I think I’ll explain starting from the coast west to east, and then I’ll explain how long the train ride was to each town. So we’ll start in Cannes. We took the TGV to Cannes, it was a 40 minute ride and there aren’t any stops. So, it’s the fastest way to get there and you have your own seat.
[00:07:26] So this wasn’t so busy. This was actually a nice journey to Cannes. And then the train station drops you off really close to their promenade, to their beaches. They’re known for more of the soft sandy beaches than you come across in the French coast. We took advantage of a beach club there.
It’s Important to Book Your Beach Club in Advance in the Summer
[00:07:44] Jessica Osborn: We went to the Carlton Beach Club, this is part of the Carlton Hotel, and we reserved our lounge chairs online in advance. I think we did it maybe the day before, so I highly recommend that, because just a side note, I went to a couple beach clubs in Nice without booking and they turned us away because there wasn’t availability. We paid 45 euros a chair, we got two chairs, our daughter didn’t need one, and it’s actually, it’s really nice, they give you these, you know, really cush, almost like a mattress padding lounge chair, with terrycloth on it.
[00:08:18] And they give you towels. Someone walks around throughout the day, because you actually get to reserve these chairs for the whole day. But they walk around with menus and you can order drinks and food. They give you a jug of water and cups to stay hydrated, and then they move the umbrellas for you to keep you shaded or as much shade as you need.
[00:08:42] They’re happy to move the umbrellas in and out of the sand.
[00:08:45] Annie Sargent: Nice. Nice. Very good. And I assume they have bathrooms as well and changing rooms and all that.
[00:08:52] Jessica Osborn: Yes, that’s a good point. You’re also paying for the amenities, the changing room and the showers.
[00:08:57] Annie Sargent: So, is this attached to the hotel? Was this attached to the Carlton or?
[00:09:02] Jessica Osborn: I think so, or the Carlton might have been just across the street. Yeah, but the Beach Club is right on the beach, and I think there’s maybe three to four rows of lounge chairs, so you couldn’t get any closer.
[00:09:15] Annie Sargent: Right. It’s not a very wide beach, so the number of chairs is limited. And so, yeah, obviously, you want to book this in advance. Otherwise, you know, I go to Spain a lot and in Spain you can just show up. And also you only pay 12 euros for the chair.
[00:09:32] Jessica Osborn: Oh, nice.
[00:09:33] Annie Sargent: Yes. you know, it’s not the same service.
[00:09:35] You don’t have bathrooms. You don’t have, well, you have showers, but you have bathrooms and showers, but they are the same ones everybody shares on the beach. You don’t have your private, you know, you don’t have anybody walking around offering to take an order for drinks or food or anything.
[00:09:51] You have to bring your own. So, you know, it’s a different experience. That’s why it’s a lot cheaper, I suppose.
[00:09:57] Jessica Osborn: Absolutely. Yeah, this was definitely our splurge, and right Cannes is definitely one of the more pricier places along the Riviera, I think, with the Film Festival, and all the luxury stores, which, you know, if someone’s interested in shopping for, you know, those luxury brands in the Riviera. I recommend doing it here, because it’s right on the promenade on the beach, and there’s, like, really interesting art sculptures that you can view as well, and yeah, I think it’s a good place to do your high end shopping is in Cannes.
[00:10:30] Annie Sargent: Right. And if you want to go into the city of Cannes, it’s also a city, so you can also go to the, you know, the little shops in the city. Did you do any of that besides the high end shopping?
[00:10:43] Jessica Osborn: Well, we did not do the high end shopping, but I walked past it.
[00:10:47] Annie Sargent: You walked past it. You saw them. You waved at them. Hello.
[00:10:50] Jessica Osborn: We saw them, yes. I said, oh, how nice.
[00:10:54] Annie Sargent: Yeah, I do about the same.
[00:10:55] Jessica Osborn: But no, we didn’t go too far into the main town, but we did work our way up, the old town it’s on a hill and it just, you can wind your way up. And we had, we had dinner in the old town up on the hill.
[00:11:09] There’s also, I don’t know if there’s a church, if it’s a church or some kind of fort or fortress, there’s something at the top, we walked around with really great views as well.
[00:11:18] Jessica Osborn: And we actually stayed here all day because when we arrived we learned that there was a festival there was a, they call it the Festival Pyrotechnic. And what they do in the summer is countries will demonstrate fireworks like with choreographed music. They compete with each other. So that day we saw Norway so I think it’s one country a day and Norway was the winner and everyone can vote.
[00:11:46] Annie Sargent: Wow, that must have been quite spectacular.
[00:11:49] Jessica Osborn: Oh, it was amazing.
[00:11:50] It reminds me of, you know, Las Vegas, the Bellagio fountains, but instead it was fireworks.
[00:11:56] Annie Sargent: Wow, cool. And so they probably set this off like at what, 10, 11 at night or something?
[00:12:03] Jessica Osborn: Yeah, we stayed a little bit later. It was dark. Yeah, I think it might have been 9 or 10. We had booked the TGV earlier and we just, you know, we took the risk of missing it and then booking another train. But when we went back, we asked the conductor if we could get on the next, on the later TGV train, and he let us because it was empty.
[00:12:24] So, yeah, I recommend just asking and you never know. They might just let you use your same ticket on a different time.
[00:12:30] Annie Sargent: That’s great. That’s fantastic. Yeah, so in Cannes, other things you could have done that you didn’t do because you were lazying around on the beach, how dare you?
Other things to do in Cannes
[00:12:40] Annie Sargent: But what you could have done also is get on one of the boats that goes along the coast. They have boats that will take you to different places, and most of these little cruises take an hour or two, and they are very pleasant as well.
[00:12:54] But obviously, if you’ve rented a beautiful, you know, lounge chair, and you want to take it easy, and your kid is having a grand time making sandcastles, why would you go anywhere else?
[00:13:07] Jessica Osborn: Right. But the boat sounds amazing. I know it’s probably one of the, Cannes is probably closest to Saint Tropez in this area, so maybe next time I’ll take a boat.
[00:13:17] Annie Sargent: Maybe next time. Yeah. You know, it’s always worth going to the port and seeing what they offer, in all these kind of seaside towns. Usually something is going on, you know, somebody is going to rent Ski-Doos or little boats or, you know, whatever it’s, they all have a different take on this, but it’s usually something you can do without too much preparation.
[00:13:39] And of course, I’m sure that Cannes also has electric bike rentals, which you could do if you wanted to, you know, go up the hill a little bit to see the place from a distance. I mean, you know, there’s always things you can do in a town like this, because Cannes is really a city. It’s not as big as Nice, but it a good size city.
[00:14:00] Jessica Osborn: Yeah, absolutely. It was nice. It was beautiful, clean town, along the promenade. A lot of kid friendly things to do. There’s a Ferris wheel, a double decker carousel that my daughter wanted to ride on over and over. Ice cream vendors, games, it’s kind of like a carnival boardwalk atmosphere in my mind.
[00:14:19] Annie Sargent: Very cool. And you were there in July, right?
[00:14:22] Jessica Osborn: Correct. Yes.
Antibes, Provençal Vibes on the Riviera
[00:14:23] Annie Sargent: Okay, very good. All right, shall we move on to the next town you visited?
[00:14:28] Jessica Osborn: Let’s talk about Antibes. So this is 25 minutes from Nice. So Antibes, it sits within rampart walls, once you get off the train station, it’s an easy 10 minute walk, to the old town and the beach. To me, it kind of reminds me of Provence a little bit with the stone architecture.
[00:14:45] There’s a Provençal covered market that they host every day. There’s town squares that are really quaint and a great place for aperitivo and alfresco dining. Really cute boutiques here with, like, nicely crafted linens and produce, like olive oils. And then the beach here, we went to the local beach, so it’s below the ramparts, it’s this crescent shaped beach. The sand was a little bit more gravelly, so we didn’t play in it too much, but we swam, and we could swim out pretty far and still be within the bay.
[00:15:19] Annie Sargent: Nice. Did you find the water pretty cold or was it a good temperature for you? Do you remember the temperature?
[00:15:25] Jessica Osborn: I don’t remember the temperature, but I remember it was perfect.
[00:15:28] We didn’t have to tiptoe in, we could just probably run in, like we were on fire because we’re so hot. But it was perfect weather.
[00:15:36] Annie Sargent: That’s fantastic.
[00:15:37] Jessica Osborn: Yeah, it was magical.
[00:15:39] I was just going to say a highlight that we had when we were swimming was a thunderstorm rolled in and it was kind of exciting though. Everyone, seems like a lot of locals are running out and we’re all standing under the ramparts and people were dancing in the rain and it was kind of magical just to watch the thunderstorm roll through.
[00:15:56] Annie Sargent: Oh, that’s fun. So you didn’t stay quite as late that day?
[00:16:00] Jessica Osborn: No, yeah, we were there for a short time. We probably headed home around three.
[00:16:05] Annie Sargent: And you didn’t rent any chairs or anything, you just brought your towels and sat on the beach.
[00:16:11] Jessica Osborn: Yep, just brought a towel, sat on the beach. Yeah, we probably spent more time in the town. We had a nice lunch and just explored a little bit. I found, and I’m not quite sure what it is, but I found a house with a sign that said, it was in French, but it said something about Bonaparte, so I’m wondering if Napoleon lived there or…?
[00:16:30] Annie Sargent: Oh, perhaps. Well, okay, so Bonaparte, he, when he came back after his first arrest, he did this walk. Oh yeah, Antibes is where he started his walk to Paris. That’s got to be what it was. I can’t remember what it’s called right now, but yes, yes, definitely a place where Bonaparte spent some quality time, you know. I’m sure he was there a lot because, you know, Corsica is not that far, but they were probably remembering the time when he walked to Paris to retake power.
[00:17:01] Jessica Osborn: Oh, interesting. Very cool. Cool. We also saw a Picasso museum there as well.
[00:17:06] Annie Sargent: Nice. And you saw a bunch of yachts, you wrote that this is a great place for yacht spotting.
[00:17:12] Jessica Osborn: Yeah, so when you leave the train station, if you just keep going straight down, to the left is the marina or the harbor, and that’s where all the, they call it Millionaire’s Row, so apparently it’s the home to Europe’s wealthiest yachts. That’d be a great place to go yacht spotting.
[00:17:31] Annie Sargent: Yes, if you’d like to shop around for the best yacht, you can do that in Antibes. So Antibes also has a really a really fun walk right along the beach, it’s about a 5k walk, it has a name but I mean it’s just a coastal walk that people really like but since it’s 5k and it’s not paved or anything, you know, you have to be up and down a lot and you’re on rocks and but that’s one that people really like because there are also areas where you can stop and take a swim.
[00:18:05] So it’s just gorgeous doing that, but it takes, you know, you have to be in fairly good health to do that sort of thing. And people also do it at night when, or just a sunset, you know, the golden hour, just to get beautiful light and get some nice photos. Anyway, lots to do in Antibes as well.
Private Beach Clubs in Antibes?
[00:18:23] Annie Sargent: Again, boats and… did you see any private beach clubs in Antibes? I don’t remember if they had, well, I wasn’t there in the summer, that’s probably why I didn’t see any.
[00:18:32] Jessica Osborn: You know, I did not, we didn’t go far past the public beach, but maybe around, like where it juts out, but no, we did not see any.
[00:18:41] Annie Sargent: Okay. So the reality is, in France there is always a public beach. So even if they haveprivate beach clubs, you don’t have to go to the beach club, you might have to walk in gravel, or go to the rocky beach, you might need to bring, you know, water shoes or whatever, but there’s always a public beach, if you don’t want to pay for the beach clubs.
[00:19:03] Jessica Osborn: Yep, absolutely. And most of them even have showers, too.
[00:19:07] Annie Sargent: Yes, yes, yes, showers and pretty basic bathroom facilities, just the essentials, let’s put it that way. But you know, it’ll, do, I guess.
Nice as a Home Base
[00:19:16] Annie Sargent: All right. Ready to move on to talk about Nice?
[00:19:20] Jessica Osborn: Yes. Yeah. Let’s talk about Nice. And this is my favorite place, or at least a great home base. It’s a larger city, but still very walkable and family friendly. I love the pastel buildings and the Art Deco architecture. Some things that we enjoyed doing was we hiked up to Castle Hill Park.
[00:19:39] There’s a lot of stairs, but along the way there’s this gorgeous lush waterfall that you can view and at the top you’re rewarded with amazing views of the city.
[00:19:48] Annie Sargent: Well, there is also an elevator. If you go during business hours, there is an elevator. It’s a little bit hard to find, but it’s really not very far from where the stairs start. If you got walk just around that bend, there is an elevator and it’s free. I think they stop at 5:00 or 5:30 PM or something.
[00:20:09] So, it doesn’t run all the time.
[00:20:11] Jessica Osborn: Got it, oh that’s it, oh I, if only I knew, because I was pretty exhausted at the top.
[00:20:17] Annie Sargent: It’s a lot of stairs.
[00:20:19] Jessica Osborn: Luckily there’s the cafe at the top so I grabbed, I think I got a lemonade and maybe some kind of pastry.
[00:20:25] Annie Sargent: Yes, but once you get up there, you have playgrounds, you have benches and drinks and things like that, so.
[00:20:32] And this is where there used to be a castle. But it’s gone. So it’s still called Castle Hill, but no more castle. Don’t look for the castle, you won’t find it.
[00:20:42] Jessica Osborn: Oh, bummer. Ha ha ha. Yeah, didn’t see the castle.
[00:20:46] Annie Sargent: What else do you like about Nice?
[00:20:47] Jessica Osborn: Yeah, I liked the flower market. I think it’s on Cours Saleya so they have really great food, and the flowers are just so beautiful. I got some flowers on our first day to have in our apartment for the week, which was lovely.
[00:21:00] And then on Mondays they have a flea market, and I found really neat vintage, you know, Chanel stuff. I found this lady who is selling miniature perfume bottles, really great home goods like porcelains and chandeliers, stuff I wish I could pack in my suitcase and take home with me.
[00:21:18] Annie Sargent: Yeah, that’s cool
[00:21:20] Jessica Osborn: And then there’s an old town there as well, where you can just get lost. A lot of windy narrow streets. And at nighttime it comes alive, all the restaurants they spill out into the streets, and everyone is just walking around doing their passeggiata and it’s like a living room for tourists and for locals.
[00:21:39] Annie Sargent: It’s a very fun thing to do in the evening. You go out and have an ice cream, or dinner, or a drink or whatever and just look around. It’s fun
[00:21:46] Jessica Osborn: Yeah. Speaking of ice cream, I found my favorite gelato, it’s called Fenocchio.
[00:21:51] There’s gazillion of flavors.
[00:21:53] Annie Sargent: Yes, they do have a lot, they do.
[00:21:55] Jessica Osborn: My favorite flavor that I found was called gianduia and it’s kind of like a Nutella, but denser. They use more of a hazelnut paste. So good.
[00:22:05] Annie Sargent: Yeah, that’s also a chocolate type. It’s a praline kind of chocolate, love it.
[00:22:10] Jessica Osborn: Yeah, it was so good. Brings me back.
[00:22:12] Another place was, that my daughter really liked, was Fountain Park. It’s a football field size splash pad that goes off every 15 minutes. She got to play around and meet a lot of local kids as well.
[00:22:26] Annie Sargent: Yes, so that’s not far from the big statue, what’s his name? The guy who stands there with his arms open and his…
[00:22:34] Jessica Osborn: I don’t know who it is, but I know exactly what you’re talking about.
[00:22:37] Annie Sargent: Not very far from that.
[00:22:39] Jessica Osborn: And there’s a lot of street performers over there, musicians, people playing the piano. It’s lovely, and at night we found some squares where there was, they were hosting Salsa dancing. It was fun. We walked to the beach at night, and it’s just fun to people watch.
[00:22:54] We saw a lot of… A lot of teenagers running around and friends and lovers just sitting on the beach, people were skipping stones, people were still swimming. It was, it was lively.
[00:23:07] You mentioned water shoes and I think the Nice beach absolutely requires water shoes because it’s very, very rocky.
[00:23:14] In fact, a lot of the places, the beach clubs have ropes that lead into the water so that you can get out. It’s not well graded and the rocks move under your feet when you try to get out of the water.
[00:23:26] Annie Sargent: Right. And it can, I mean, in parts, it can be pretty steep, you have to take big steps to get out of the water and in those big rocky beaches, it’s hard.
[00:23:36] Jessica Osborn: Yeah. And the waves here, I think I had the biggest waves that we saw, more of a wave pool, so still very gentle.
[00:23:44] And here we saw a lot of fish. So I recommend bringing snorkeling gear or goggles and… And all these shops in Nice had all the stuff that we needed. We bought water shoes when we were there and snorkeling gear.
[00:23:57] So, I don’t think you need to pack it.
[00:23:58] Annie Sargent: Were you attacked by any seagulls in Nice, because they are pretty aggressive, the seagulls in Nice.
[00:24:05] Jessica Osborn: No, I don’t think, no, no attacks this time.
[00:24:08] Maybe we weren’t carrying anything that they wanted.
[00:24:10] Annie Sargent: Exactly. Exactly. And it looks like you went to the Hotel Negresco for dinner.
[00:24:17] Jessica Osborn: Yeah, so I recommend the Hotel Negresco for first splurge. This time,we had dinner at their beach club at night. They just turn it into more of a restaurant, but we watched the sunset and just had really fresh food and delicious wine. And it was a wonderful evening at the hotel.
[00:24:35] Annie Sargent: Yeah, that’s great. And also, the Negresco if you just want to go in for a drink, we went in with my friend, we just had some tea. They have this beautiful bar, the bar area is interesting, just to see the inside of the hotel, and the public areas anyway. It’s very interesting.
[00:24:51] You can go in there for a drink or something. You know, I’ve never had a meal there, but it’s good to know that they serve good food. That’s great.
[00:24:58] Jessica Osborn: Yeah, it’s good. And you’re right, we explored the hotel as well and there’s this massive chandelier that I don’t really know the story very well, but I think it must have belonged to like a czar from Russia and he couldn’t take it with him, so he left it there.
[00:25:12] Annie Sargent: Ah, too big! That’s great. That’s great. All right!
[00:25:16] Annie Sargent: Next stop is Villefranche-sur-Mer, hardly outside of Nice, really.
[00:25:22] Jessica Osborn: Very close. Six minutes train. Very close. And here it’s more of a, I think of more of a fishing village. You have to hike down a little bit to get to the beach. You have to walk through the marina and the cafes. But, this is another crescent shaped public beach. And we saw the most families and babies, and kids swimming here. The water is very calm and I think it had the clearest water. It was shallow so you could see all the textures and colors from the pebbles. There’s a, some sort of reef or maybe a rock, a little bit, it’s very close to the shore, that you can swim to, and we saw a lot of people exploring this rock.
[00:26:01] Annie Sargent: Very nice. And you mentioned a creepy medieval tunnel. Is that the rock, you mean? I don’t know about this.
[00:26:07] Jessica Osborn: Oh, this is different. So when we were walking down the streets to get to the beach, we found this little hidden kind of door. And I did some research and I learned that this is a military tunnel that was built in 1260. You can actually still explore it. It’s very dark, I don’t know if there’s light, so I would recommend bringing a flashlight or, you know, your phone flashlight.
[00:26:29] People used to use this tunnel for wine cellar and storage. People would store their livestock in this tunnel. So it’s an interesting part of the history. And hey, maybe, maybe it’s a shortcut to the beach.
[00:26:43] I’m not sure. I don’t know if I’m willing to test it out.
[00:26:46] Annie Sargent: If it’s too creepy, I don’t go.
[00:26:49] Jessica Osborn: Yeah, same.
[00:26:50] Annie Sargent: So Villefranche is a nice, how big would you say the beach area is? Is there plenty for, because I know it’s very busy. But, did it feel packed, or…?
[00:27:00] Jessica Osborn: It did, you know, we probably could have walked further away and had less crowds, but I remember it being very crowded, we just, we found enough space to put one towel, and it was fine, because we just spent most of the time in the water.
[00:27:14] Annie Sargent: And there it’s not sand sand, but it’s not big rocks either, right?
[00:27:19] Jessica Osborn: Right, I remember it being small pebbles. We still needed water shoes, because it felt a little uncomfortable on our feet.
[00:27:26] Annie Sargent: Yeah, unfortunately all these beaches, you know, they are very busy in July and August. I mean, everybody wants to go to the beach, right?
[00:27:34] Jessica Osborn: Right.
[00:27:35] Yeah, we were prepared for that.
[00:27:37] Annie Sargent: That’s good.
Beaulieu-sur-Mer and Saint-Jean-Cap-Ferrat
[00:27:38] Annie Sargent: Beaulieu-sur-Mer and Saint-Jean-Cap-Ferrat. Ah, nice places.
[00:27:43] Jessica Osborn: Yes, that’s next. Yes, that’s a 10 minute ride from Nice. Very easy to walk to, to the beach from their train station. It reminds me of a mini Monaco. There’s a casino. It’s very clean city, sort of glitzy, seems to be mostly residential. We saw a lot of cyclists stopping there for, at the cafe.
[00:28:04] So I’m wondering if it’s part of a cycling route.
[00:28:06] We didn’t go to the beach that day because we walked the other direction to this elevated shoreline path towards Cap Ferrat, I believe the street’s called Promenade Ruvier.
[00:28:18] Annie Sargent: Okay.
[00:28:19] Jessica Osborn: And we went to the Villa Rothschild. I thought it was Rothschild, but when I asked someone for directions, they didn’t understand what I was saying.
[00:28:28] And then they were like, oh, Rothschild, yes, oui! And pointed us in the right direction.
[00:28:33] Annie Sargent: Yes. Mm-Hmm.
[00:28:34] Jessica Osborn: When we got there, we went to the tea parlor for lunch, and it’s just this beautiful room with all these windows. Great place for a lunch, I think, after the walk. Might have been two miles of walking that we did, on the way there.
[00:28:46] And then we explored the different rooms, and then, I think the highlight of this villa is the gardens, and there’s also a fountain show. But the gardens, you can just get lost in and explore, there’s different kinds of gardens here, so there’s a French, Spanish, Provençal, Japanese, Florentine, Exotic Garden, Stone Garden, Rose Garden. It was all spectacular, so highly recommend going to Villa Rothschild.
[00:29:13] Annie Sargent: Yes, it’s very popular, I mean, lots of people go every year, it’s a beautiful place.
[00:29:19] Jessica Osborn: Yeah, I agree. And they have golf carts that can take you down the hill through the parking lot, so you can save your feet a little bit if you need to.
[00:29:27] Annie Sargent: Oh, that’s good.
[00:29:28] Jessica Osborn: Yeah, and then there’s the beach. I did some research because we didn’t go there, but it’s called La Petite Afrique Beach, and I think it’s the most shaded beach along the coast.
[00:29:37] There’s a lot of palm, well, I don’t know palm trees, but I think there’s a lot of trees. And here there’s more volleyball courts and water sport rentals. So I think that’s place to go for that.
[00:29:48] Annie Sargent: Yeah. Very good. Beach volley.
[00:29:50] Jessica Osborn: Right? I didn’t see that anywhere else. So, it’s your Top Gun vibes.
[00:29:54] Annie Sargent: Yeah, the beaches are not big enough in Provence to have that. You need big, long, sandy beaches for that, I guess.
[00:30:01] They don’t have so much of that.
[00:30:03] Jessica Osborn: Yeah, must be.
Menton Great Beach with Kids
[00:30:04] Annie Sargent: Cool, let’s talk about Menton now.
[00:30:07] Jessica Osborn: Okay, yeah, this is the last place that we went to, that we explored. So, Menton it’s 40 minutes train from Nice.
[00:30:14] Annie Sargent: It’s almost in Italy. I mean, when you’re in Menton, you’re really almost in Italy.
[00:30:18] Jessica Osborn: Yes, right, it’s on the border. I wonder if it even must have been, oh, we did the petit train and we learned a lot of history. I don’t really remember much, but I think the Monaco Principality used to own that area in Menton.
[00:30:31] Annie Sargent: Yes, yes.
[00:30:33] Jessica Osborn: And here the train station was under construction, so it was a little dusty. Menton had the longest walk, I think, to the main town, it might’ve been a 20 minute walk.
[00:30:44] Yeah, it wasn’t so bad though, and the water here, I think it had the longest stretch of shallow water.
[00:30:50] Annie Sargent: That’s great for kids.
[00:30:52] Jessica Osborn: Yes, exactly, and it’s right next to the harbor, so it’s neat to see all the different boats lined up. And when you swim out, there’s a, like a little floating dock that you can swim to and jump off of. And then when you look back at the town, I think it has the most beautiful view that we saw on the Riviera because it looks at the town of Menton and all the old colorful buildings, it reminded me like the Cinque Terre in Italy.
Fête du Citron
[00:31:18] Annie Sargent: Yeah, it is gorgeous. It’s a beautiful, beautiful place. And you mentioned in your notes that it’s famous for the Fête du Citron, so it’s like Citrus Festival, and it’s in February and March. And it’s absolutely stunning. Yeah, that’s really, really beautiful. People come from all over the world to see it.
[00:31:38] Jessica Osborn: Very cool, I don’t know if it’s called a billboard, but I guess we saw some signs that showed pictures from it and it showed, kind of reminds me of a carnival type of atmosphere with the parades and everything, floats, everything’s made out of citrus.
[00:31:52] Annie Sargent: Yes. Lots of citruses. Yeah. And you mentioned a pirate ship? I don’t remember the pirate ship, tell me about that.
[00:31:59] Jessica Osborn: Well, yeah, so, there’s another little bay that we didn’t swim in, but we walked around and it was cute. There’s a little library shack where you can check out a book and read it.
[00:32:10] Annie Sargent: Oh, nice.
[00:32:12] Jessica Osborn: And there also was a pirate ship playground, so, not quite a real pirate ship, but a playground for kids to play in.
[00:32:20] Annie Sargent: That’s good.
[00:32:21] So, how did your daughter do with all the, I mean, kids normally love the beach, right? Was she happy as a clam most of the time, or did she get bored with it after a while?
[00:32:32] Jessica Osborn: No, I think she was happy as a clam. She loved it. We would try to get back to our apartment by around four o’clock and have four to seven to take siesta and to relax and decompress from being out in the sun all day. I think it was the hardest to get back on the train.
[00:32:49] It’s just even busier than in the morning and everyone smells a little ripe from being outside and in the sun. And then you still have to walk home, so, yeah, that was probably the hardest part of the day, was getting home.
[00:33:05] Annie Sargent: Yeah, so, did you try and get there early every day, or did you just wake up when you woke up?
[00:33:12] Jessica Osborn: Yeah, we try to get there early. I would say, we would try to get somewhere by 8 o’clock in the morning.
[00:33:17] Annie Sargent: Wow.
[00:33:18] Jessica Osborn: Yeah, and that helped. Is that early?
[00:33:20] Annie Sargent: That’s early! Be there by 8 o’clock? Oh, yeah, that’s very early. On vacation? Yeah.
[00:33:26] Mm hmm. But little kids, yeah, little kids usually wake up early, don’t they?
[00:33:33] Jessica Osborn: Yeah, we were all just so excited for the day. And it was easy to get train tickets, I have an app that I downloaded called Rail Europe and, you know, just look at the times maybe the night before and book the tickets. The tickets were fairly cheap, maybe five to 10 euros a person round trip.
[00:33:49] Annie Sargent: Mm hmm.
[00:33:50] And the trains come all the time, right? And along there, I mean, taking the train, you really, really do not want a car on the French Riviera. The trains run all the time. They’re not that expensive and they can take you most places you want to go.
[00:34:04] Jessica Osborn: Yes, I agree. I don’t think we waited more than 20 minutes for a train.
[00:34:09] Annie Sargent: And if you want to go somewhere a little further, for instance, if you want to go see the city of Èze, up in the hill, you can take the train to Èze Village, which is the, you know, the bottom of the cliff where the train runs. And then you can just wait for an Uber, you know, call an Uber to take you up the hill, or you could walk, or you could take the city bus. There’s also a city bus.
A Few Thoughts on Monaco
[00:34:34] Annie Sargent: One thing to know is that you cannot get an Uber to take you into Monaco.
[00:34:40] They are not allowed enter Monaco. So if you want to go to Monaco, take the train all the way into Monaco. You have some thoughts on Monaco. I want to hear them because I tend to agree with you.
[00:34:52] Let’s see what you thought.
[00:34:54] Jessica Osborn: Yeah, Monaco. Right? I mean, I feel like maybe you have to go to say you’ve been there to say you’ve been to a small principality, or a place where the Grand Prix is.
[00:35:04] But in my opinion, I don’t think Monaco captures the essence of the Riviera. I remember it to be more of a concrete jungle of high rises, I thought it was hilly, so, not very walkable, and everything’s spread out, so there’s the casino, but then, you probably need transportation to take you to the aquarium and the palace. And the shopping, you know, a lot of people want to splurge in Monaco, but the shopping reminded me of, like, Vegas-style stores.
[00:35:32] Annie Sargent: Yeah, it doesn’t have that much charm and it is a lot of high rises because there are a lot of people packed in a very small place. Now, it’s very wealthy and so, you know, it’s very clean, very safe, all of that, and they do have elevators. A lot of these staircases, there’s usually also an elevator that you could get in to, to avoid walking up the stairs, but it is very, very hilly.
[00:36:00] Like you just, you know, you’re constantly going up and down and getting anywhere it takes a while because you have to wait for the elevator, and then you have to… there’s always a few more steps.
[00:36:10] Anyway, it is not my favorite place to go to, by far like, you know, it’s, yeah. People who like the Grand Prix, excellent.
[00:36:19] I’ve been there, you know, I enjoyed the church, I enjoyed seeing Grace Kelly’s place, well, grave, all of that. But, it’s just a different world, I think, Monaco.
[00:36:30] Jessica Osborn: Yeah, I agree.
[00:36:31] Go for a half day. Say you’ve been there, but I don’t recommend staying there or spending too much time in Monaco.
Tips for families going with children
[00:36:37] Annie Sargent: So, do you have any tips for families going with children to these places?
[00:36:42] Jessica Osborn: Yeah, so, well, I recommend, you know, packing for these day trips, right? Bring your water shoes, your snorkeling gear, bring sunscreen. I recommend, just, you don’t have to pack sunscreen when you fly to France, just go to the pharmacy, I think they have wonderful products. And then bring shampoo. Because most places, even if you don’t rent a beach club, there’s local showers, and then you can shampoo the salts and the sand off your body and your hair, and, you know, you’ll be the best smelling person on the train.
[00:37:15] Annie Sargent: Yes, otherwise you’re going to be itchy, you know, because it’s very, very salty.
[00:37:20] And you might be the smelliest person on the train, which you do not want to be.
[00:37:26] Jessica Osborn: Right. Yeah, it gets really crowded.
Finding Places to Eat
[00:37:28] Annie Sargent: Tell me a little bit about food in that area. Did you have any issues finding restaurants, finding affordable places to eat or whatever?
[00:37:38] Jessica Osborn: Yeah, there’s a lot of cafes. We didn’t even have to do any research. We would just walk by. And of course, you have to plan for the certain lunch and dinner setting hours. But yeah, we just sit down and everything on the menu had something that my daughter would eat, like pizza, pizza and pizza.
[00:37:57] Annie Sargent: Pasta.
[00:37:58] Jessica Osborn: Oh yeah, pasta. Yeah, of course, pasta as well. There’s a lot of Italian-influenced food, I think, in the Riviera. Gelato.
[00:38:07] Annie Sargent: It’s Italian, yeah, yeah. And you have a lot of wonderful fruit in the summer, you know.
[00:38:12] Jessica Osborn: Oh, yes.
[00:38:12] You reminded me at the market one day, we got a cantaloupe and brought it to our apartment and it just, the whole place smelled like sweet, perfectly, ripe melon. It was delicious.
[00:38:25] Annie Sargent: Mm hmm, yeah, yeah, the cantaloupes are fun, and they come from not very far. Cavaillon is a place, oh, probably, I don’t know, a hundred kilometers away, where they grow a lot of wonderful, wonderful cantaloupes. Yes, yes, and a favorite way to eat them is either you mix them with some prosciutto ham, or you put a little port wine inside and dig it out. It’s so good. I can’t wait to do that. I love summer just so you can do that. You know, yeah, I got to do that at least once a week.
[00:38:59] Jessica Osborn: Yeah. That sounds amazing. I know we had bought balsamic vinegar in Italy, so we used that and drizzled that on the cantaloupes. That was delicious.
[00:39:08] Annie Sargent: Yes. Yes. And it’s really important what you said, you know, you didn’t really even do research about restaurants. And you don’t really need to, I think, you know, unless there’s a special meal that you want to have because it’s your birthday or your anniversary or something, really, you can just go with the flow and enjoy whatever’s in front of you.
[00:39:28] I’m a big proponent of that. When you’re in on vacation, don’t try to plan every minute and don’t try to see the best bakery and the best restaurant and the best beach. Just go to the freaking beach, it’s right there in front of you.
[00:39:44] Jessica Osborn: Exactly. Yeah. And follow your nose. You can smell the good boulangerie in your neighborhood.
[00:39:50] Annie Sargent: Yes, just go with what’s right in front of you and don’t stress about the small stuff.
[00:39:55] Jessica Osborn: Yes, I agree.
[00:39:56] Annie Sargent: So is this something you recommend other families do? You know, just go beach hopping all over the French Riviera?
Expensive or Reasonable Vacation?
[00:40:02] Annie Sargent: Another question, was that a really expensive vacation or was it reasonable?
[00:40:07] Jessica Osborn: I thought it was reasonable. We booked our apartment, I think, gosh, maybe six months in advance. And it, I mean, I could tell you it was, I think it was 700$ for eight days.
[00:40:20] Which is a great price and such a great location. And the beach is free if you do the public beaches and, you know, we only splurged that one day and maybe one meal.
[00:40:30] So, I thought it was very, very affordable. And I highly recommend families go here. I think the Riviera deserves a week.
[00:40:37] So highly recommend. I wish, I would go back every year. I would live there. I love it so much.
[00:40:43] Annie Sargent: Yes, yes, and if you can go during the shoulder season, so perhaps in May or June, or September, you will have fewer people. The prices are going to be essentially the same. You’re not going to pay a lot less just because it’s May, but it won’t be quite as crowded. Because it is true that there are a lot of people in July and August because it’s vacation time for locals, and so they want to go to Nice as well, and to all of these, Menton is a beautiful place, I mean, who wouldn’t want to go there?
[00:41:15] So, I think I heard on French radio recently, that number one place for French people where they want to go is Corsica. They just, everybody wants to go to Corsica. But the French Riviera is a close second.
[00:41:29] Jessica Osborn: Yeah, absolutely. I’ve been there in May and September, and I thought May the water was a little chilly, but you know, good for cold plunging, I guess. September the water’s perfect.
[00:41:40] You make a good point, because I think one of the mistakes we made was trying to, well, webooked a flight home like the first weekend in August, and I think that’s when most people in Europe take that month off.
[00:41:51] So, I remember London Heathrow actually had to cancel our flight. And we paid a fortune to find a one way ticket home from Paris and we took French Bee. I had never heard of it, but I think it is maybe a smaller airline.
[00:42:05] Annie Sargent: Is that all right? I’ve considered it, but I haven’t dared book a ticket on it.
[00:42:10] Jessica Osborn: It was fine. It’s like the Southwest Airlines of France, so, you have to pay for, if you want a meal. But it was fine, it was comfortable, it was expensive though.
[00:42:19] Annie Sargent: Well, if it’s last minute, yes, it is expensive.
[00:42:21] Jessica Osborn: Yeah, that blew our trip,
[00:42:23] Annie Sargent: It’s crazy that they cancelled your tickets and didn’t give you a different option.
[00:42:29] Jessica Osborn: Yeah, it’s a longer story than that, that I won’t get into, but I don’t know if you remember last year, London Heathrow had some issues with a shortage of people.
[00:42:38] Annie Sargent: Yeah, Heathrow last summer was a nightmare. It was way worse than CDG. I mean that’s horrifying. Worse than CDG, are you kidding me?
[00:42:47] Jessica Osborn: Yeah, I know, right? We went to France in, around Christmas time last year, or a couple years ago, and at CDG we missed our flight, and we were there five hours earlier, and still missed our flight. It was nuts.
[00:43:00] Annie Sargent: Yeah, I think things have calmed down. My husband flew to Holland last few days, and his flights got, flights still get canceled or rescheduled or delayed or whatever, you know. It’s funny to me because people talk about how long it takes to go anywhere on an electric car because you have to stop and recharge, but, tell you what, flying these days is just as long because your flight is going to be delayed, you know, it’s not like they all go, you know, completely flawlessly.
[00:43:31] So, anyway.
[00:43:32] Jessica, thank you so much. It’s been lovely having you back on the podcast. Next time you have adventures in France, please write to me. I would love to have you back on the podcast for a third time.
[00:43:43] Jessica Osborn: Oh, I love it. Thank you, Annie. I really appreciate the time. And, I love your, your podcast. I listen every week to your episodes, it feeds my Francophile addiction.
[00:43:54] So thank you for what you do.
[00:43:57] Annie Sargent: Merci beaucoup.
[00:43:58] Jessica Osborn: Merci. Au revoir.
[00:43:59] Annie Sargent: Au revoir.
Thank you, patrons
[00:44:00] Annie Sargent: Again, I want to thank my patrons for giving back and supporting the show. Patrons get several exclusive rewards for doing that, you can see them at patreon.com/joinus.
[00:44:11] Thank you all for supporting the show, some of you have been doing it for many years now and you are wonderful.
[00:44:17] However, I have to complain about something new that’s happening with Patreon. Most people who joined Patreon recently, and there were quite a few, went to Patreon and saw that they could sign up for a new thing called a free tier. Now this totally defeats the purpose of Patreon because I get zero support from you if you do that.
[00:44:40] When you join the free tier, you simply give Patreon permission to track you and serve you ads, sell you merchandise, whatever, whatever. It does nothing for me, nothing at all. I know that perhaps they’ll give you a snippet of one of the rewards and it encourage you to join.
[00:44:57] Look, if you want to support the podcast, join one of the paid tiers on Patreon. It’s as little as $2 per month and for $5 per month, you get quite a few rewards, including a monthly Zoom, which is always a lot of fun.
[00:45:11] To join this wonderful community of Francophiles, go to patreon.com/joinus, and to support Elyse go to patreon.com/ElysArt.
A recommendation from Laura Cantral
[00:45:31] Annie Sargent: This week, instead of telling you about my Itinerary Service and my VoiceMap tours, I will let Laura Cantral do it for me. Thank you so much, Laura, for sending that voice memo.
[00:45:43] Laura Cantral: Hi Annie, this is Laura Cantral. My husband Ralph and I had a wonderful trip to France in early October, and we so appreciated your great advice and itinerary recommendations. We visited Arles, Avignon, Aix en Provence, and Paris.
[00:45:59] And in every location your suggestions added so much to our travels. It’s hard to pick a highlight from the trip because it was all really wonderful.
[00:46:09] One thing that was a special treat was a suggestion you made when we spoke to you that we hadn’t thought of. You suggested that we rent a car to get from Avignon to Aix en Provence instead of taking the train as we had planned. That way we could explore the Luberon a little. That was such a great experience and we enjoyed seeing the beautiful countryside and the charming villages along the way.
[00:46:30] So, thank you for suggesting that.
[00:46:32] We also really enjoyed your VoiceMap tour of the Marais while we were in Paris and learned a lot about that part of the city. All in all, it was a great trip and we’re already planning our next visit. Merci, Annie!
[00:46:45] Annie Sargent: If you’d like to avail yourself of any of these services, go to joinusinfrance.com/boutique.
[00:46:52] Annie Sargent: All right, let’s talk about the 2024 bootcamp. The dates for this bootcamp are Saturday, May 11th until Sunday, May 19th. But we start in the morning and we end up late at night. So I recommend that you arrive in Toulouse on May 10th and you don’t leave until May 20th.
[00:47:10] Here’s the idea. You spend three hours in French class in the morning, Monday through Friday, and in the afternoon, we go to visit somewhere cool around Toulouse. And we also have two weekends, two full weekends, that we spend together, and we go on longer excursions for that. The schedule is not 100% set in stone, but I can already tell you that we’ll go to Albi and Carcassonne.
[00:47:34] We’ll also go to a painted cave, perhaps two. We’ll have a couple of days in Toulouse, my fair city. We’ll do an afternoon with a winemaker. We’ll visit a food market. We’ll have a cheese tasting. We will have a grand time. So for now, I’m not going to reveal the URL where you can book this experience because space is limited to 40 and patrons get first dibs.
[00:48:02] But look at your calendar to see if you can make it, listen to episode 444 of the podcast to hear what the 2023 bootcampers had to say about it, and see if that’s something you’d like to do. And then next Sunday, I’ll reveal the URL and hopefully you’ll be ready to decide if you want to do this or not.
[00:48:23] In 2023, bootcampers said that they loved the language learning and the cultural immersion, and this year, it’s going to be with the same school, and the cultural immersion, well, of course, you’ll be in Toulouse. Yeah, beautiful city, wonderful time. They loved it in Toulouse. They also loved the community because you will find yourself surrounded with Francophiles and fans of the podcast.
[00:48:47] And everyone was so wonderful. It was such a privilege to spend time with these people. They love the food, they love the tours, the activities, the convenience of seeing so many beautiful places in such a short time without having to plan anything, that was my job. And of course the supporting environment, because there were very few problems, but the few problems that came up, I dealt with it, and that was that.
[00:49:14] So I hope you sign up, and remember, once we get to 40 people, the bus is full, I will close the registrations.
[00:49:22] My thanks to podcast editors Anne and Cristian Cotovan who produced the transcripts and make the podcast sound good. This resource is very important because you can search for all of these tips that we’ve shared over the years and it will help you organize your own trip to France very, very effectively.
Next week on the podcast
[00:49:43] Annie Sargent: Next week on the podcast, an episode about favorite novels set in France, with Elyse. So many great books that you should consider. And we did this with the help of Jenny, who keeps a running list on the Facebook page. And so we looked at some of those books and added our own. As a matter of fact, there’s a book that we didn’t talk about when we recorded this episode because I hadn’t read it yet, but it’s called A Woman of No Importance. And I’m almost at the end of it. And it’s about this American woman who played a huge part in the French Resistance. And she spent quite a bit of time in Lyon. And she was also very, very involved with Le Cambon sur l’Union. We did an episode about this. It was episode 301.
[00:50:29] It was a place of refuge and a place where a lot of people saved a lot of Jewish children in particular.
[00:50:36] Anyway, a beautiful, beautiful book and so many more, you’ll hear all about that next week. Thank you so much for listening and I hope you join me next time so we can look around France together and think about that bootcamp.
[00:50:50] I think you’ll love it. Au revoir!
[00:50:52] Annie Sargent: The Join Us in France Travel Podcast is written, hosted, and produced by Annie Sargent and Copyright 2023 by Addicted to France. It is released under a Creative Commons, attribution, non-commercial, no derivatives license.