Table of Contents for this Episode
Categories: Family Travel, Lyon Area
Discussed in this Episode
- Musée d’Art et d’Industrie
- Notre-Dame de Valbenoite
- Place du Peuple
- Weiss Chocolates
- La Table des Matrus
- Le Nelson
- Gouffre d’Enfer
- Saint-Victor-sur-Loire
- Parc du Pilat
- Manufrance
- Maison du Patrimoine et des Lettres
- Firminy
- Rue Martyre de Vingre
- Les Halles
- Ferme Pédagogique
- Pralus
- Faisselle
582 Saint Etienne Area with Brooke Koss Cunningham (Jan 15)
[00:00:15] Introduction
Annie Sargent: This is Join Us in France, episode 582, cinq cent quatre-vingt-deux.
Annie Sargent: Bonjour, I’m Annie Sargent, and Join Us in France is the podcast where we take a conversational journey through the beauty, culture, and flavors of France.
[00:00:31] Today on the podcast
Annie Sargent: Today, I bring you a conversation about a place most travelers overlook, Saint-Étienne.
Annie Sargent: My guest is French professor Brooke Koss Cunningham, who knows the area well. Together, we explore a working-class city shaped by coal mining, bicycles, and industry, and now known for design and innovation.
Annie Sargent: And we wonder, is Saint-Étienne France’s most underrated city? We talk about museums kids actually enjoy, easy nature escapes, local food and chocolate, and why Saint-Étienne may be one of the most affordable and authentic cities in France to visit, or even live in.
[00:01:13] Podcast supporters
Annie Sargent: This podcast runs on chocolatine, coffee, and the generosity of listeners like you.
Annie Sargent: Whether you book an itinerary consult, take one of my self-guided GPS tours on the VoiceMap app, in Paris only for now, join me for a day trip in my electric car around the southwest of France, or support the show on Patreon, you keep this whole adventure going, and I’m deeply grateful.
Annie Sargent: If you’d like to support the podcast and skip the ads this year, you’ll find the link in the show notes.
Annie Sargent: All my tours and services are at joinusinfrance.com/boutique.
[00:01:50] The Magazine segment
Annie Sargent: For the magazine part of the podcast, after my chat with Brooke today, I’ll discuss an art installation coming to Paris in June 2026.
Annie Sargent: Before we get started, a quick reminder that my website, joinusinfrance.com, is there to make your life easier. Each episode has its own page with the edited transcript, all the links I mention, and French place names spelled correctly, so you don’t have to stop what you’re doing and take notes.
Annie Sargent: Joinusinfrance.com/ boutique is also where you’ll find itineraries, VoiceMap tours, and links to purchase any of my tours and services.
Annie Sargent: And it’s also where you can sign up for my free newsletter, so you can keep up with all the great topics we tackle on the podcast. And to find the episode page for this specific episode, type in joinusinfrance.com/582.
[00:02:59] Brooke’s Connection to Saint-Étienne
Annie Sargent: Bonjour, Brooke Cunningham, and welcome back to the podcast.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Bonjour, Annie. Merci beaucoup. I’m so happy to be here with you.
Annie Sargent: Yes, we want to talk about your love for a part of France we have not talked about very much, and that is Saint-Étienne.
Annie Sargent: It’s a place I know because I actually have cousins who live there, and I’ve been there several times throughout my life, but mostly to visit them, not so much to do touristy sort of things.
Annie Sargent: So I’m looking forward to our chat, Brooke, so you can tell me the wonderful things that there are there.
Annie Sargent: But, the first thing to mention is, you were on the podcast before, and you are a French teacher, a professor. Are you college or not college yet?
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Yeah, so I teach at a local university. It’s one of our branch universities here in Texas. It’s called UT Arlington, but I also teach classes for our community.
Annie Sargent: Okay, so you do both.
[00:03:58] Travel Planning Tips and Tools
Annie Sargent: And so you are a Francophone and a Francophile, so the question is, does that mean you plan your trip differently than your run-of-the-mill visitor?
Brooke Koss Cunningham: I would like to think yes, and maybe a large part of that is I have such a big network of friends in France, that most of my travel includes a visit to at least one of these people every time I go, and that was the case this time with Saint-Étienne.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: But one of the nice things about being a French professor, as I’m sure some people in your audience will know, is that I can really take advantage of many of the original source materials in French. So using things like the Office du Tourisme for the different places that I visit. Sometimes I feel like getting the perspective from a French person rather than a friend that’s gone, just gives you a little bit more understanding of where you’re going, your destination, if that makes sense. So French really helps.
Annie Sargent: Yeah. Yeah, French helps. Do you use apps? Are there secrets, things that you do that perhaps not everybody uses, or maybe everybody uses them?
[00:05:04] Using Maps and Social Media for Travel
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Yeah, I think that I’m pretty common in the way that I approach travel planning. I like to do a deep dive, honestly, first on Google Maps. So wherever I’m going destination-wise, I find the areas that I’m interested in, and the great thing about Google Maps is that there’s so much linked right there in the website or the app. You can just click on a city, you can click on a monument, you can click on anything, and a website will pop up, pictures will pop up, and I drop the little Google Man, I kind of walk around the city or wherever it is that I want to go, and just kind of see what it might be like to live on the street or walk on the street where I’m visiting.I think a lot of people probably do that, but for me, it’s really helpful to get a visual before I arrive, especially if it’s a new place.
Annie Sargent: Right, and to add a little bit to that perspective, I think it’s also important to use a paper map if you have one, because there are some things you cannot see on Google Map, not easily anyway.
Annie Sargent: The other day, I was in Vichy, and I realized after a few hours that, you know, it was very sleepy, there wasn’t that much to do, and so I wanted to get… And I had my car, so I wanted to get out of the city and see some of the Plus Beaux Villages around me.
Annie Sargent: And so Google gave me a list of the Plus Beaux Villages, but wouldn’t put them on a map for me, so I didn’t know which ones were near each other. Like, do I go to this one and this one? Because if you just tell the GPS, "Take me to village XYZ," it will do it, even if you have to go through, you know, across the… the whole region to do that. So I have a paper map with me all the time, and it makes it so easy to see the proximity of things.
Annie Sargent: And if they’re east or west or north or whatever, you know, just, it gives you… Well, perhaps it’s because I’m older than you. I don’t know.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: No, no, I take a paper map with me to France as well.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: I keep it tucked into the car door every time I drive in France. So no, I’m with you. I agree. Just the initial research, I usually do online via Google Maps.
Annie Sargent: Right. Right. Yeah, because… and I use Google Maps constantly, but it’s also good to have like, a perspective of where things are in relationship to each other, and on the map, on a laptop, it’s a little easier to see, but if you just have your phone, dang, it’s hard to know if, you know, what direction things are in.
Annie Sargent: You can, I mean, I’m sure you can do it. It’s just that it was frustrating, and I just pulled out the map.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Absolutely. I prefer working on my laptop when I’m doing my research for my trips, and I would encourage anyone else who is planning a big trip like this to do the same for the exact reasons you’ve mentioned. It’s too hard to do it on a phone.
Annie Sargent: Yep, yep. What else did you do?
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Well, so I try to follow a lot of people on social media who are French or French-speaking. And there was a really great tour guide who does what you might call Les Villes Méconnues in France, especially for Americans.
Annie Sargent: The unknown cities.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: The unknown cities, exactly. And I appreciate his perspective because sort of what I hope to do today with you, is to enlighten people to maybe some of these unpopular cities as really valuable tourist destinations. And so you can find people like that all over social media, Instagram, TikTok. I just search hashtags, and one of them could be like, Les Incontournables de whatever city, right? Like, where the must-see places of whatever.
Annie Sargent: Yes, yes, the lesser-known a place is, the less likely it is to have a wonderfulwell-ranking site in English. It might have a wonderful site in French. It might rank a little higher than the one in English, but you know, hitting first page with the name of a fairly obscure place is not so easy.
Annie Sargent: So Google’s going to suggest a ton of things before you get to the one you want, and so if you know who you can go to with social media, that would help you out.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Yeah, totally, and I can link some of that for you, for your listeners.
Annie Sargent: Yes, we can put that in the show notes.
[00:09:06] Join Us in France Website and Resources
Annie Sargent: Looks like that’s one of the things you’d use as well, is the Join Us in France website.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Oh, all the time, Annie. It’s an excellent resource. If people are not using the website, you’re missing out. The search bar is phenomenal, and you can type things as unusual as, like, markets in, I don’t know, Burgundy, whatever. It’s just whatever comes to mind, you type it in the search bar, and something will populate in the results.
Annie Sargent: Yes, and more and more you get results in the episode transcripts because we’ve talked about so many different places, and it’s gotten better at searching through the transcript as well as the main page, which is very good because that’s where the gold is, is really in listening to the episodes and looking through the transcript. I mean, you can’t listen to the episode over again just because we mentioned something you want, you know?
Annie Sargent: Just I understand that that’s not practical. So just search on the website.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: And I have to give a shout-out to your editing team.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Man, they do a great job!
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Christian and Anne Cotovan, excellent work.
Annie Sargent: Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I do proofread everything before I put it out. I mean, the French is pretty good actually for people who are not French speakers. But occasionally they can’t tell what word whoever was speaking said, you know? So I do, I do proof everything before I post it.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Okay, excellent. Well, it’s great. It’s an excellent resource.
Annie Sargent: Thank you.
Annie Sargent: How do you recommend people prepare for interactions in French when they go to these lesser-known places, which also happen to be places where people are more likely to speak French to you?
[00:10:38] Preparing for French Interactions
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Absolutely, and I know that you have talked about this, and Elyse has talked about this, and your other guests have talked about this ad nauseam, but having some understanding of social codes in France is really key to having a positive interaction.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: And just to give your listeners some context, I’ve been speaking French for about 20 years, and I’m still not perfect. It’s something that comes with time, learning, and learning these social codes comes with experience. So making sure you’re using the right forms of politesse, bonjour, bonsoir, you know, using all of the things that we know we should use, even in the United States or wherever people live, but definitely in France.
Annie Sargent: Mm-hmm.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: And then, for me personally, because I am a French teacher and I call myself a Francophone, I try to meet up with other people in my local community. I live in Dallas, Texas, and there are tons of people living here as expats. And even if you don’t live in a large city like this, you can find people through organizations like L’Alliance Française or online group meetups. There are some really excellent teachers. In fact, there’s one that’s not too far from you in Bordeaux who do group chats online, and I can link his information as well. You just have the opportunity to learn by mistakes, making mistakes in a group setting or with other people. Because you won’t learn without practicing, and you won’t learn if you don’t make mistakes. You have to try.
Annie Sargent: Exactly.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: So I really encourage those one-to-one or group meetups with people whenever possible, even if it’s online or with a tutor.
Annie Sargent: I’ve had people who ask me to do an itinerary consult in French, and we’ve done that.
Annie Sargent: Recently I had somebody book a, actually a, John August, no, Mike August, I’m sorry. He’s coming to France soon, and he said, "Oh, we’re going to do a day trip together, but we have to do it in French." And I’m like, "Well, sure, French comes easy to me," you know?
Annie Sargent: So you can do that as well, you know? I’m not going to impose French on people, but if that’s what they want, I’m happy to speak French, of course.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Yeah, that’s awesome. I didn’t realize that you were doing the itinerary consults in French. I guess it’s just something people request. Okay, cool.
Annie Sargent: Yeah, they ask me. If you speak to me in French, I will respond in French. Not for the podcast recording, however, because that’s different.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Yeah, absolutely. I remember when I was in grad school, something that we talked about is establishing something called the koiné. It’s like the language, the common language between two or more people. And when I’m in France, I tell myself, I mentally prepare myself, and I hope your listeners do this as well, to say, "I paid to come to this place to work on my French skills."
Annie Sargent: Uh-huh.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: "I am going to speak French with people, even if they respond to me in English, because they can tell I’m an American. I’m going to continue speaking French."
Annie Sargent: Right.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: You just kind of have to force the confidence. So here or there, if you’re working towards that goal of becoming more fluent in French, you just have to keep going with it.
Annie Sargent: Right, so if you know zero French, if you’re A1 or, you know, or a total beginner, that’s harder.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Absolutely.
Annie Sargent: But you’re a confident French speaker. I mean, you sound like you’re C1 at least, so, just the brief French exchange we had. So that’s… It’s easier, you know? But even if you’re A2, B1, that’s, there’s plenty to work with, you know. Just… just use it.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Yeah, and I think people underestimate the power of body language. That sounds so silly to say, but there’s a lot that’s communicated just by using your hands, you know?
Brooke Koss Cunningham: And French people have a lot of expressions. You can see when people in French are surprised or if they’re annoyed, you know, there’s using a lot of gestures. So that’s another thing to learn as well for people, like how to interpret people’s body language.
Annie Sargent: Definitely.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: But yeah, there’s a lot you can do. There’s a lot you can do. I also encourage people to listen to Radio France. There are all kinds of options for people, whatever your interests are, history, culture, music. I mean, there’s just so much that you can listen to on that one app.
Annie Sargent: Yeah. Yeah, it’s a good app. There’s plenty of content that they only put out on the app. So… yeah.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: That’s true. That’s true. Yeah, I’ve tried to use Spotify for France Culture, it doesn’t work.
Annie Sargent: No, because you have a lot less, you have just basic stuff. I listen to France Info in the morning. And then you also can, you can get the emails from France, what was it called? It used to be called France Trois, and now it’s Bonjour. I can’t remember the name of it. Anyway, but that’s written stuff that you can get.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Yeah. Oh, that’s great! I didn’t realize you could do that. That’s awesome.
Annie Sargent: Yeah.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Just to say one more thing about L’Alliance Française, if you don’t have one near you, you can actually purchase a membership. It’s very affordable, depending on where you rank in their tiers. They have a family membership, students, seniors, and then just children, and you can have access to what they call their Culturethèque.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: And it’s all of their online materials. It’s educational, you can take classes or use their class materials. They have very up-to-date films, music, books, book reviews, so highly recommend that just as an online resource for authentic materials. That’s a word we use in French education. Authentic materials are things that come from French-speaking countries, that were written by French speakers.
Annie Sargent: Right. Excellent. Yeah, I hadn’t thought of that, but it’s true. I mean, sometimes I think, "Oh, it’s too bad you don’t live in San Francisco, there would be a L’Alliance Française there," but if you can use it from wherever, that’s really great. That’s good, very good to know.
(Mid-roll ad spot)
Annie Sargent:
[00:16:20] Exploring Saint-Étienne
Annie Sargent: All right. Why Saint-Étienne? Or why that place?
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Allez, allez, allez, allez. So I love Les Stéphanois. That’s for all my football friends, soccer friends.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Les Verts.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Les Verts.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Allez, Les Verts!
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Allez, Les Verts.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Allez, Les Verts.
Annie Sargent: Oh, c’est super.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: C’est chouette.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: I’d love to get your perspective on Saint-Étienne as well, because I hear different things from French people about Saint-Étienne, but for me, I go there because I went there as a young student. I had friends who invited me to come and learn at the Université de Jean Monnet. It’s one of their small universities there, and it’s extremely accessible by train. There’s like three-plus direct trains by TGV from Paris every day.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: And I can’t even tell you how many from Lyon. So you can get there very easily from these large cities.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: And it’s really just a stone’s throw away from Montpellier, the South, the Mediterranean.
Annie Sargent: Exactly, yes.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: So I find Saint-Étienne to be, for me, personally, because I want to be in a French-speaking milieu with other French speakers, this perfect spot where I can connect with my friends. I have access by train or highway, and I am in a beautiful setting because it’s nestled into a valley between two wonderful regional parks, the Livradois Forez and Parc du Pilat.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: So you have nature everywhere, you’ve got the urban experience, and I tell people it’s an unpopular city to visit just because most of my friends who travel to France, American tourists, I’m only speaking here for American tourists, are going to places like Saint-Tropez or Marseille, or Bordeaux, or Paris, you know, all these big cities, right?
Brooke Koss Cunningham: This is a place for you to go if you really want to have a French experience. I don’t know how else to put it. It’s very French.
[00:18:14] Saint-Étienne’s Industrial History
Annie Sargent: It used to be a very industrial city, and Lyon, between Lyon and Saint-Étienne, used to be a lot of heavy industry that was very polluting. So driving there as a kid, you could tell you were getting close because you could see the smokestacks and all of that, which we don’t have in the Toulouse area. We never have had that in the Toulouse area. But those industries are gone.
Annie Sargent: It’s cleaned up a lot. You still see the tall kind of chimneys occasionally, but they’re not working anymore, and as far as I’m concerned, that’s a really good thing. They used to produce a lot ofmetals and things like that. It was heavy industry in that area, and also refining for petroleum products. They still do some of that, but south of Lyon now.
Annie Sargent: Anyway, so that was the thing. But when I was growing up, going back to Les Verts, Allez Les Verts, they had a fantastic soccer team that was French champions for many years in a row. They were the Paris Saint-Germain club of the time.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Mm-hmm.
Annie Sargent: Which is hard to believe, because they haven’t done that great. They almost made it back to the Champion League a few years back, but quickly, they don’t have the funds to hire the right talent, I guess, anymore.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Right.
Annie Sargent: But it was a big deal back then. Today, Saint-Étienne is the cheapest city to rent in, in all of France. Now, I’m talking about large cities, I’m excluding villages and places like that.
Annie Sargent: But if you want to live in a city, in an affordable city, Saint-Étienne is definitely it. They are really trying to revitalize their city center, they’re making a lot of it pedestrian, which is always lovely. The weather is not the best, but I speak as a southerner, you know, we like our sunny days down here. It’s not quite as sunny, but not England either, you know? So my image of Saint-Étienne is that they also have a strong accent.
Annie Sargent: It’s a very recognizable accent in French, that I’m sure a lot of them try to lose, if they move away, because they will get made fun of, which is kind of too bad that people make fun of people for their accent, but that’s a reality in a lot of languages.
Annie Sargent:
[00:20:30] Tourist Attractions in Saint-Étienne
Annie Sargent: And when I went to do a little bit of tourism, I saw some really nice things, like, you could visit an oldcoal mine. It was my first time doing that. What else? I can’t really remember what we did. This is the sort of place where I really should go for a week and just do tourism, go say hi to my cousins, but visit, because I’m sure there’s a lot of things to visit in that area, and I hope you’re going to tell us about those.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Yeah. I loved what you were saying about driving past Saint-Étienne as a kid and seeing the smoke, because I watched an interview with one of the more famous footballers of the Les Verts.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: L’Association sportive de Saint-Étienne.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: And I think actually he must be from somewhere in the south. His name’s Patrick Muhle or something like that.
Annie Sargent: Okay.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: He had a very southern accent. But anyway, he was talking about how when they would play in the ’60s and ’70s, which I think is probably the time when Les Verts were like really amazing powerhouse.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Yeah. Mid-’70s, yeah.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: … That they would see the smoke coming from, you know, the distance, and that would tell them if the game was going to go well, depending on how much pollution was in the air, which I thought was so funny and crazy.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: But yeah, so it’s definitely what I would call a city of many designations. As I was doing my research for this podcast and just thinking through what I know, Saint-Étienne, from my perspective, talking to other French people, has been ville ouvrière, kind of this working-class, like you’re saying, industrial city, but it didn’t really start out that way. It was this really unknown village that actually became a zone of demilitarization between these two counts, the Counts of Forez and the Count Lyonnais.
Annie Sargent: Oh!
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Also, the Archbishop in Lyon. So it was this neutrality zone back in the 12th century. Yeah, I know, isn’t that crazy?
Annie Sargent: Yeah.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: And over time, as the Saint Jacques de Compostelle became more popular, this route towards Le Puy.
Annie Sargent: Yeah, the Camino.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: The Camino. People were coming from Feurs, which actually was the seat of that area, the Loire area, for a long time. They were coming from there and from Montbrison down to Saint-Étienne, and from Lyon to go to Le Puy, which is just a little bit southwest of Saint-Étienne, and the arms industry started to grow.
Annie Sargent: Ah, yeah.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: So, like you’re talking about, metalworking has been in Saint-Étienne’s history since, gosh, the Middle Ages.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: It’s crazy. It started out like Thiers, it started out with knives, and then developed into guns with François Premier during the Renaissance. And as you know, Saint-Étienne was une ville d’armes for many, many years
Brooke Koss Cunningham: through the 19th century with Napoleon. And just kind of continued in that vein of industry of building things with metal, including one of the most famous bicycles, the Hirondelle.
Annie Sargent: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s right. I forgot about that, but yes, you’re right.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Voilà, Hirondelle, which I think you can actually see a replica or the original in the Musée d’Art et d’Industrie in Saint-Étienne.
Annie Sargent: Nice!
[00:23:43] Saint Etienne with Children
Brooke Koss Cunningham: An excellent museum to visit. I don’t know if we said this already, but I traveled to Saint-Étienne for a week with my children. I have a nine-year-old and a six-year-old. I was by myself, so parents, it’s possible. It’s hard, but it’s possible to travel solo with your kids to France. But, they loved it.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: They loved the Musée d’Art et d’Industrie, because not only do you have, which strangely, and I don’t think this has anything to do with being American, my oldest was very interested in seeing the firearms.
Annie Sargent: Uh, well, you know…
Annie Sargent: I found it very strange, because we don’t own guns, but whatever.
Annie Sargent: Yeah, yeah, but they’re interesting.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Yeah. She was very interested. We went there, and honestly, the most exciting part of that museum, in my opinion, and my kids actually, was the bicyclette and the ruban, because they also used to make ribbons. It was a big fabric industry as well.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: So you have all these really amazing materials that are on display, and you can actually walk through, like, this wall of cascading ribbons. The kids love it. It’s really fun.
Annie Sargent: Yeah, nice.
[00:24:50] The Invention of the Bicycle
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Yeah. And then, of course, seeing all of the original prototypes of the bicycle. How do we say, is it draisienne or draisienne?
Annie Sargent: Draisienne. La draisienne.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Draisienne. So you can see all of those kinds of things, as well as motorcycles.
Annie Sargent: One of these days, we need to do an episode about the bicycle in France, it’s not that old, bicycles are not that old, and it’s actually surprising that they didn’t have bicycles in the Middle Ages.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: You know what? It is kind of surprising.
Annie Sargent: Yeah! They had a lot of things that we have, but no draisienne yet.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Oh, that’s so interesting. You know, I hadn’t thought about that. I wonder if, like, the technology for, you know, creating these lighter metals maybe didn’t come around until
Brooke Koss Cunningham: the 18th century?
Annie Sargent: Yeah, maybe they didn’t have the right alloys. I don’t know, but yeah, but it’s an interesting fact that… Another thing that to put on my list.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Another thing. That would be a great episode, actually, because, you know, there’s so many people who watch Le Tour de France every year, so why not?
Annie Sargent: Right, and bicycles have come such a long way. And also it ties into the fact that French people use a lot of bicycles. A lot of French people travel by bike, by trottinette, the scooters, all of these things.
Annie Sargent: It’s very popular.
Annie Sargent: A lot of people have a car, too, but the private car is not seen as the must-have, you know, not everybody feels like they have to have a private car in France. So it’s a different thing. Yeah.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Oh, yeah, totally. And, you know, I thought it was interesting that you mentioned earlier noticing some renovations for pedestrians in St-Étienne, because that’s one of the first places I saw adults using a trottinette, was in St-Étienne, and it’s because they have excellent public transportation. They have a tram line that runs north to south.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: It services so many parts of the city In addition to their excellent bus network, that you can just take your scooter with you wherever you go. And St-Étienne, as we might have mentioned, is in a valley, so you’re climbing out of the city, going up these really steep hills.
Annie Sargent: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: So I think people also like having the trottinette so that they can walk and carry something light versus a bicycle, maybe, which would be a little bit harder to multi-, you know, like, go up the hills.
Annie Sargent: The hills, yeah. I don’t think of St-Étienne as a hilly city.
Annie Sargent: Hmm.
Annie Sargent: Overall, is it hilly? I don’t remember.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: It’s very steep. I actually really dislike… I really dislike driving there.
Annie Sargent: I was young enough that I didn’t notice. I’d notice now.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Yes, you would notice now, especially if you’re driving. I came in from Lyon because I was coming from Burgundy, where I saw my goddaughter, and we were driving down on the main highway, and then I got onto one of their main roads called the Cour Fourieille. I had to climb back up into the city to get to our lodgings, and man, it’s stressful, because St-Étienne is mostly one-way streets.
Annie Sargent: Ah.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: They’re closing a lot of them to make these… do you call them, I don’t know, like, voie pédestre, like, to make it more…
Annie Sargent: Voie piétonne, rue piétonne? Yeah.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Yes. They’re trying to make the city more walkable, and so you’re running out of places you can drive. So anyway, it’s kind of a nightmare driving there, I will say. It’s tough.
[00:28:08] Driving Through Scenic France
Annie Sargent: But the drive, so recently, just a couple of weeks ago, I was, I did a whole loop through France. Did not include St-Étienne, but pretty close. I went to Clermont-Ferrand, which is not very far, and the freeway between Clermont-Ferrand to Brive, so going across east to west, is absolutely stunning.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: It is. It’s absolutely stunning.
Annie Sargent: It is so beautiful because you have all the volcanoes, all the old volcanic kind of plateaus. It’s very high. As you exit Clermont-Ferrand, you’re going up and up and up and up and up and up, and you’re about 2,000 meters when you get to the top, and it doesn’t look anything like the Pyrenees, which I go across the Pyrenees all the time. But it’s its own landscape, its own sort of, it’s really beautiful. At a distance, you could see the mist, it’s like the Smoky Mountains.
Annie Sargent: Yes.
Annie Sargent: To me, it was like, "Oh," because I went to the Smoky Mountains a few years ago.
Annie Sargent: I was like, "Well, this is just like the Smoky Mountains."
Annie Sargent: Just really, really beautiful. Anyway, if you want to go to these places that are a bit less traveled, you can go there by train, you can use the public transportation, but if you’re going to drive, we have very lovely freeways as well.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Absolutely. I think Le Massif Central is such an amazing place to drive through. I will say, if you go on some of the regional or departmental roads, especially going east to west, we got really carsick traveling in the Les Boucle de la Foret. So I recommend going on the highways, like Annie suggested.
Annie Sargent: Yeah, the highway. Yeah.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: You still get beautiful scenery without all the upset stomach, but man, it is gorgeous. It’s absolutely gorgeous. You have all of these, I think it’s called the Monts Forez, and then you have the Monts Lyonnais, and you have the Gorges de la Loire. You have just so many beautiful landscapes to see as you’re driving. It’s fantastic.
Annie Sargent: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s a lovely, a lovely area.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Yeah. I love Clermont-Ferrand also. It’s an excellent city to visit.
Annie Sargent: It’s kind of striking how dark it is, though. All these dark buildings, I was like, "Oh, this is like…" You know, you think, like, some superhero is going to jump out from behind the building all of a sudden. To me, it made this impression of, like a supernatural sort of place because the cathedral is made of black stone.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Black stone, yes, the volcanic rock. It’s crazy, isn’t it?
Annie Sargent: Yeah, I mean, after a while, it gets a bit dreary, but a lot of the houses, what they’ve done is, they’re built in stone, they’re built with the black stone, but they’ve stuccoed in between the windows, they’ve stucco in white or beige or a cream or something, and that makes it looks a lot more cheerful. But I thought, "Oh, that’s like… I don’t know, some underworld sort of place." I don’t know.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: It truly, seriously, I remember going up to… So of course, all the volcanoes are extinct in this area. I remember driving up to this one volcano that had become a lake, and like you’re talking about, you have this mist rolling over the surface of the water, and you can see all this green algae floating beneath. It’s freaky, but it’s cool. It’s cool. It’s totally cool.
Annie Sargent: Yes.
[00:31:25] Family-Friendly Activities in Saint-Étienne
Annie Sargent: I would assume that this is a good place to visit with kids because they, you know, there’s a lot of opportunities for hikes, and biking, and things like that.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Yes, definitely. And what I was mentioning earlier about looking at the Office de Tourisme, there are so many amazing animation, activities, events for families that are not necessarily expensive, many are free.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: And you and I had talked about this as well, doing the ferme pedagogique. My kids love that. We did that in France, not in Saint-Étienne, but there are many of them in the area.
Annie Sargent: Oh, all over, yeah.
[00:31:59] Exploring the Loire River and Surrounding Areas
Brooke Koss Cunningham: And then the hikes, we took the kids to Saint-Victor, which is right on the Gorges de la Loire. Easy drive, easy hike, beautiful, magnificent perspective of the Loire River.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: I mean, completely breathtaking. And the kids loved it because you have the old little castle, and you have also the… It’s not a cathedral, it’s like a chapel that, I don’t know, it makes it feel warm and friendly while giving you these, like, jaw-dropping views.
Annie Sargent: Yeah. So, this is where the Loire originates. The department is called La Loire.
Annie Sargent: Mm-hmm.
Annie Sargent: By La Haute-Loire, by La… You know, there’s a bunch of departments that get the name Loire, because the river goes a long way.
Annie Sargent: But it’s a beautiful part of France. Yeah, lots to do.
[00:32:45] Hiking and Outdoor Adventures
Annie Sargent: And I should mention that if you are looking for hikes, and bike rides, and things like that, the Decathlon Outdoor app is very good. It’s both a website and an app.
Annie Sargent: And it’s owned by Decathlon, which is a major French, perhaps French-German, I’m not sure at this point.
Annie Sargent: Okay.
Annie Sargent: Anyway, it’s a European kind of outdoors, sort of store, where you have, you know, all the gear that you would want for hiking, biking, all sports.
Annie Sargent: And they have developed, I used to recommend Komoot, but that got bought over and they just crippled it. Like, I don’t know what they did with it, but it doesn’t work anymore.
Annie Sargent: So Decathlon Outdooris now my preferred way of looking for bike rides, and hikes, and things. And you can totally say, "I’m with kids," like, it needs to be easy enough for kids, or with a stroller, or with somebody in a wheelchair, or you know, things like that. It’s a very good way to look for bike rides and things. I think kids love those.
Annie Sargent: On a sunny day, if, you know, pack your kids, go on a hike. Bring snacks, obviously, but…
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Yeah, I think that was definitely one of the more accessible trails that we’ve done, and that is an important thing to bring up because accessibility can be an issue when hiking in France, or honestly, just doing anything. But Saint-Victor, I think, welcomes quite a few of these, I would call them, like, senior travel groups.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: And so you’ll see them cruising in the water, and there are all kinds of things for people to do by car. You can drive up to this little chapel there. You don’t necessarily need to hike to the top of it. That one’s very accessible.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: The other one we did that was less accessible was the Gouffre d’Enfer, that’s essentially a dam, there’s a barrage near Saint-Étienne, on your way to Rochetaillée. That one was much harder for my kids and myself because it’s a pretty steep climb. Of course, the views are, again, breathtaking.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: And they have the zip lining options. You can do escalade also in this area, like, rock climbing.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: But that one was not as accessible.
Annie Sargent: Yeah, so ‘gouffre’ is a chasm in English, and ‘d’Enfer’ is from hell. So the chasm from hell. I think the name should have alerted you that it might not be so easy.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: You know, I’ve known about this place for years. My friends would tell me, "Oh, you have to go to Gouffre d’Enfer," and I was like: Okay, I’m going to go. Like, I’m going to go with my kids. Well, here’s where having a paper map or talking to someone in the tourism office would’ve been really helpful. We drove all the way there, and it was closed for construction. So I did what a good French person would do, I thought of Asterix, "Je vais me débrouiller" I’m going to, you know, figure it out.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: I just parked wherever the other French people parked and did the hike anyway.
Annie Sargent: Yes, yes. Yes, yes, don’t let it stop you. Just find a way.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: I did it. You know, my American mind said, "Oh, it’s closed. I can’t… You know, this isn’t good. I have to follow the rules." And I was like: Get into your French mind. Break the rules.
Annie Sargent: Yeah, break the rules. Do what you came to do.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: That’s-
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Yea
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Yeah. So anyway, that was a good hike, but a hard one, I would say. Not necessarily accessible for kids.
[00:36:00] Medieval and Historical Sites in Saint-Étienne
Annie Sargent: And the city center of Saint-Étienne, I suppose, has a bunch of shopping and restaurants and… is there much medieval anything?
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Yeah, so we were talking earlier about the Saint-Jacques-de-Compostelle?
Brooke Koss Cunningham: There is an entire area in Saint-Étienne where you can see the old, there’s actually a statue of Saint-Jacques-de-Compostelle, it’s on the Rue Martyre de Vingre. I’ll send it in my notes as well, but you can see some of the medieval architecture there, and that was one of the very first marketplaces where people were selling… They called them armes blanches.
Annie Sargent: Yes. An arme blanche is like a knife or anything that doesn’t require a powder or like a trigger of some sort.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Okay. Yeah, so this is one of the first places that you could find that in Saint-Étienne. There’s also the Place du Peuple, which is really popular, was maybe like the original marketplace in the Renaissance time of Saint-Étienne. So Place du Peuple, you can see the old droguerie. It’s still there. It’s still a family-run business.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: And one of the oldest churches in Saint-Étienne, which is a little bit further south, but from both of these two places I’ve mentioned, is Notre-Dame de Valbenoite, and that’s a 12th century Romanesque church, and that was actually the original site of this demilitarizing treaty that I mentioned earlier.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Yeah, so you can still see that as well. And then there’s a really cool place that I haven’t actually been to, it’s on my list for next time. It’s called the Maison du Patrimoine et des Lettres.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: And it’s just behind La Grande Église de Saint-Étienne, which again, is a historic district, and you can kind of walk there to Les Halles, so the other big marketplace.
Annie Sargent: Right.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: It’s a building that was constructed in the 17th century, so not quite Middle Ages, but, you know, still old. And they can give you tours, they can teach you about, you know, these changes that are happening in the city of Saint-Étienne, it becoming a Cité du design, innovation, all that stuff.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: But they’ll take you through kind of the history of the city as well. So that’s on my list for next time.
Annie Sargent: Cool. Yes, they are trying to get a name for themselves as a Cité du design.
Annie Sargent: Probably based on a reality that they have a lot of designers or a lot of people who work with designers who make things. And I, you know, again, I have to go back. I’ve got to go back.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: You know, something I learned that I didn’t know, and I’ve probably walked past this place a million times, it’s near the planetarium, which is also a big tourist attraction in Saint-Étienne, Manufrance.
Annie Sargent: Ah, yes, that’s a manufacturer. I remember seeing some of their products. Do they make clothes? I don’t remember.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: They initially started out making like all the things we’ve already talked about related to the metalworking industry, but they were kind of like the equivalent to Sears in the United States. It was like a mail order company. Yeah, started back in the 19th century, and it, yeah, it started in Saint-Étienne. So you can go to the original Sears of France.
Annie Sargent: In Saint-Étienne.
Annie Sargent: I don’t think my mother used them much, because I don’t have much memory of Manufrance, but the name does ring a bell, but kind of very faint.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Hmm. Yeah, it’s still there. You can see the original building. I don’t know if it’s been repurposed for something else, but yeah, I thought that was really cool. I was like: Oh!
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Interesting, yeah.
Annie Sargent: Well, here it is. Who knew? Who knew?
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Oh, actually, something… I put this in my notes. They were responsible for building the first Hirondelle, so they actually made the first Hirondelle bike, Manufrance.
Annie Sargent: All right.
[00:39:42] Shopping and Culinary Delights
Brooke Koss Cunningham: As far as shopping goes in the city and restaurants, I’ve mentioned two restaurants that I will put in my notes for your listeners, but there, I have to talk first about the things that I love about this region.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: So Weiss chocolates, huge, all over France, but especially Saint-Étienne. You can find these actually in Les Galeries Lafayette in Paris, the little prepackaged boxes of these Weiss chocolates. And they have this excellent boutique that you can visit and learn about the history of the chocolates. You can do chocolate-making classes, of course, buy all of their very expensive, fancy chocolate. But I found out in my research, this is why I think of Saint-Étienne as a city of many designations, that Saint-Étienne was once the capital of chocolate in France.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Oh! Huh, excellent. I approve.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: I’m shocked.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: I was shocked. I thought, "How?"
Annie Sargent: Yeah.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Apparently, the climate in Saint-Étienne, which you and I have already said, is kind of désagréable, it’s pretty cold and gray.
Annie Sargent: Yeah, it’s colder than in a lot of France. Yeah. Yeah.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: It was excellent for conserving chocolate.
Annie Sargent: Exactly. That’s true. Andin Vichy, the Vichy area, where I also went, they make a lot of confiserie. So they, you know, they make le pastille Vichy.
Annie Sargent: They make gummy things, they make all sorts of… So when I ask them, "What’s the local specialty?" "So we don’t have any dishes. We eat the dishes of the Auvergne, but we have a lot of confiserie." So they make candy.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Yeah. Oh, okay, that surprises me about Vichy, because isn’t there the soup, vichyssoise or whatever?
Annie Sargent: Ah, well, yeah, I don’t know how it got that name.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Is that not from Vichy? Okay.
Annie Sargent: I don’t know how it got that name.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: I just assumed it was from Vichy.
Annie Sargent: But vichyssoise is just a leek soup with a little bit of potato.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: I love it. I love leeks.
Annie Sargent: Yeah.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Okay… Here’s another thing that I love, and I don’t know if this is more of a one Lyon thing, but Pralus.
Annie Sargent: Oh, yes! Now you’re talking.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Pralus, oh my gosh.
Annie Sargent: Love it. Love it. Love it.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: What do you love at Pralus?
Annie Sargent: Oh, the, the…
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Le Praluline.
Annie Sargent: Oui.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Oh, j’adore!
Annie Sargent: It’s like a, what you call these things? Like a brioche.
Annie Sargent: It is, praliné.
Annie Sargent: But they put praliné in it, and let me tell you, it might sound like, "Oh, who cares?" Uh-uh. That is special. That is truly special. You haven’t lived until you’ve had… you know, people love the macaron or whatever, but macaron are boring. Like, there’s five flavors, and they’re not that interesting, honestly.
Annie Sargent: The things that Pralus makes, I think they’re called praline, right?
Brooke Koss Cunningham: So he has a special bread that he created, Francois Pralus. It’s called praluline.
Annie Sargent: Praluline. Okay. Okay.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Praluline.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: But oh my gosh, yeah, any kind of petit brioche praliné, oh, éclaté. It’s just like, "Whoa!"
Annie Sargent: And you can find them, you can find them in Paris as well. It’s a stop on my food tour in Paris.
Annie Sargent: Mmm, yeah, yeah, they’re awesome. You can occasionally find them in other cities as well, but it’s not like a big chain that has a place everywhere, but they should, because they deserve it.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Oh, my gosh, yeah. I get one every time I go. Anywhere near Lyon, if I can find Pralus, I’m like, "Where is it?"
Annie Sargent: Yes.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Must have it now.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: I take them for dinner. I take them for dessert. I’m like: I have to share this with my friend.
Annie Sargent: Yes, and they’re excellent. You can keep them a few days. Like, they don’t go bad quickly. You can keep them for, like, perhaps two, three days. I haven’t tried that long because I eat them. If I have it, I eat it.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: You know, the funniest thing to me is the stereotype that I think Americans have when they go to France, they’re going to walk everywhere, they’re going to lose all this weight. I just, I’m eating Pralus praluline. I never lose weight.
Annie Sargent: Oh, well.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Sorry to burst your bubbles.
Annie Sargent: You know, France is not full of only skinny people. I’m here, and I’m not skinny, so there you go.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Same. Here I am. I love to eat. I love brioche praliné.
Annie Sargent: Yes, me, too.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: So unfortunately, I did not get to try this one restaurant that I was really hoping to try. It’s called La Table des Matrus, and there’s another one called Pompi?, but I’ll talk about La Table des Matrus. It’s owned by this super young guy, and it’s in the Michelin Guide.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Ah.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: And, matrus apparently is a word in the parla gaga for kid. So it’s like the kid’s table, essentially, is what the restaurant translates to.
Annie Sargent: La Table Matrus.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: La Table des Matrus.
[00:44:37] Marker
Annie Sargent: Des Matrus. How do you spell matrus? M-A-T-R-U-S-S-E?
Annie Sargent: Just S. R-U-S. Mm-hmm.
Annie Sargent: Matrus. Table des Matrus, peut-être? I have not come across this one at all. Interesting, interesting.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: So le gaga is, you know, the patois, the Stéphanois, the kind of their little local speech. And anyway, it’s just a throwback to that, the name of this restaurant, and they use all these local producers. Some of the other things I like from this region, which I think it’s contested, but I love la faisselle, that kind of cheese.
Annie Sargent: Oh, yes.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Oh, my gosh, phenomenal.
Annie Sargent: All right, what’s faisselle? It’s a sort of creme, mm, c’est pas la crème fraîche. It’s not a yogurt quite… It’s kind of, mm, it’s a yogurt product, it’s…
Annie Sargent: Hmm.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: I eat it like a yogurt. I do.
Annie Sargent: Yes, we all do. We eat it like a yogurt. It comes in a tiny little tub that you drain it first, usually, because it’s still going to be excreting some whey when you buy it. You kind of pull it out in the tray, and you let it drip a little bit, and then you add sweetener, or sugar, or fruit, or whatever you’d like to it, and…
Annie Sargent: Mm-hmm
Annie Sargent: … I’m not sure if it’s, like, healthy, like Greek yogurt is healthy, but it’s really tasty.
Annie Sargent: I like it. I really like faisselle, yes.
Annie Sargent: Yeah.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Yeah, we’re not worried about healthy here, everyone, just so you know.
Annie Sargent: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it’s not super fatty either. You can find 0% faisselle, and it tastes pretty fine, and you can buy it. It comes with a tiny little container of some sort of coulis de fraises or something, strawberry or raspberry. Coulis, how do you say coulis in English,
Brooke Koss Cunningham: It’s thinner than a compote. It’s like a… oh, my gosh, I don’t even know how to describe it other than saying a coulis. It’s just like a jam, a really runny jam.
Annie Sargent: Yeah.
Annie Sargent: Yeah. But it’s not usually as sweet as a jam. It’s has some sweet to it, but not a lot. Anyway, faisselle is excellent. I didn’t realize it was from that area, but it’s…
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Okay, that’s what they tell me.
Annie Sargent: To be tried when you come to France. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: People tell me it’s from this area, but I think the line kind of extends along like, you know, it could be Auvergne, it could be Rhône-Alpes, but who knows? It’s somewhere from there. But yeah, it’s excellent.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: So he tries to use these local products in his food, so if you’re interested in going to, like, maybe an authentic Stéphanois restaurant, maybe try La Table des Matrus.
Annie Sargent: Oh, very good.
(Mid-roll ad spot)
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Last one I’ll tell you about before we move on to anything else, Le Nelson is a tea shop in Saint-Étienne, and even if you’re not into doing, like, a fancy high tea or whatever, it doesn’t matter. Just go there and have a cup of tea. They’ll serve, like, a little chocolate or dessert, patisserie, with your tea. It’s an excellent way to spend a freezing cold day in Saint-Étienne, if you dare to visit in the winter, which I don’t suggest. But if you dare, Le Nelson Tea Shop is wonderful. It’s really great.
Annie Sargent: Very good, Le Nelson. Love it. Love it.
Annie Sargent: Clearly there’s a lot to do.
[00:47:53] Planning Your Visit to Saint-Étienne
Annie Sargent: Oh, how long would you say people should plan on… like, imagine the listeners have never heard of this place, and they… they’re the go, go, go type of person. Should they do one day, two days? What would you recommend?
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Yeah, that’s a great question. So if you’re the go, go, go type of person, the imagined scenario is you’re hopping from Lyon to somewhere in the south. That’s what I’m thinking. You’re coming from Lyon, or even if you’re coming from Paris and you want to make a stop, you can visit Saint-Étienne in half of a day. Because like I said, the tram line is very efficient from top to bottom, north to south, and a lot of their museums are very accessible by bus or train.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Now, if you’re wanting to discover les alentours, so the surrounding areas of Saint-Étienne, which include the amazing Parc du Pilat, the Castle of Rochetaillée, if you want to go over to Forez and see all the amazing castles on that side as well, I would say give yourself a couple days because you’ll need a car, you’ll need a place to stop, and Saint-Étienne is an urban center that has everything you need. You have gobs of grocery stores, you have plenty of shopping. I mean, I didn’t even mention all the kids’ places we went to for shopping, like the bookshops and the fun places where you can get these artisanal toys and things for your children.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: There are so many places to go in Saint-Étienne. You can use it as a base if you want to explore as a nature person around.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: But for the go, go, go type of person who just wants to see something quickly, half a day, like I said, from Lyon, you can go for the morning or the afternoon. You can use it as a stop on your way to Le Puy if you really want to go to Saint-Étienne. Yeah, so for that kind of traveler, half a day, maybe a day, you don’t need to stay the night.
Annie Sargent: And typically, if you’re going to do that, you probably want to arrive in the evening and then wake up the next morning.
Annie Sargent: Well, that’s what I like to do, because I’m kind of… I have more energy first thing in the morning, so, you know, show up somewhere late and sleep on it, and then the next morning go visit.
Annie Sargent: Yeah, that’s true.
Annie Sargent: And then spend as long as the place warrants, which is not always days and days, but it’s… I’m intrigued by the museum and the downtown. I just want to see it again. Like, you know, I just go to my cousin’s place, which is not in Saint-Étienne, it’s in… What’s it called? Oh.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Is he in the south side or the north side? Do you know?
Annie Sargent: I think it’s just north.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Like Saint-Chamond or Firminy?
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Firminy is the south. Well, it’s north for you. It’d be north for you coming from Toulouse, but yes, that’s it.
Annie Sargent: But it’s the south of Saint-Étienne.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: It’s south of Saint-Étienne. It’s where Le Corbusier is.
Annie Sargent: Maybe they were in Firminy for a long time, and then they moved somewhere else, anyway…
Brooke Koss Cunningham: But you know, that you bring that up, that’s great because Firminy has the Corbusier architecture. So that’s another reason to go through the area, because Firminy is just, like, five minutes from Saint-Étienne.
Annie Sargent: Yes, it touches it. Yeah, it’s very close.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: There’s so much to see, so much to do.
Annie Sargent: All right, Brooke, lots to see. And again, you know, we’re not saying that this is the best place in France that you must visit, blah, blah, blah.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: No, no, no.
Annie Sargent: We’re just saying it’s a lovely place that if you want to discover something that feels very French and has its own regional flavor as well, because they do have a very strong accent and a very strong regional culture, which is… We love that in France. That’s, you know, bring that on, you know? It’s a very good place for that. It’s a nice place for people who might be looking for a place to move to that’s inexpensive but still a city, Saint-Étienne would be very good. But you can’t be too picky about the weather, because, oof, sometimes, oi yoi, yoi.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Yeah, you know, I’ve lived in really ugly places in the United States, and people have a certain kind of pride about these ugly places that they live in. I find that Saint-Étienne is not ugly anymore, but because of this ugly past that we’ve already talked about, there’s still this stigma about, "Oh, you know, Saint-Étienne, it’s like, don’t go there. Don’t waste your time." But really, there’s, like you said, it’s a very cheap place to go, very accessible by public transportation. It’s a working city, so people are generally extremely friendly. I mean, I didn’t have an issue talking to anyone ever in Saint-Étienne.
Annie Sargent: Yeah.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Wonderful people, very down-to-earth.
Annie Sargent: Working class, mostly.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Working class.
Annie Sargent: Yeah, it’s not… it’s not hoity-toity, you know, anything.
Annie Sargent: It’s, like, regular, everyday French people who just want to have a good life.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Yeah, and they welcome you with open arms. I’ve never gone to Saint-Étienne and felt like I was imposing or, you know, we talked about oversaturated tourism, because Saint-Étienne is not like that at all.
Annie Sargent: If you don’t like lines, go to Saint-Étienne, because you might have to wait five minutes at the museum and that’s it. It’s not five hours like it is in Paris sometimes. So you have been warned.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: That’s right. That’s right. Thank you, Annie, so much.
[00:53:01] Final Thoughts and Farewell
Annie Sargent: Thank you so much, Brooke. It’s been wonderful to talk to you, and good luck with your teaching French. Just slap them around. Tell them, "Come on." "You’ll get this eventually. You’ll get this."
Brooke Koss Cunningham: They will. Everyone can.
Annie Sargent: Merci beaucoup.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Merci a vous.
Annie Sargent: Au revoir.
Brooke Koss Cunningham: Au revoir.
[00:53:25] Thank you Patrons
Annie Sargent: Again, I want to thank my patrons for giving back and supporting the show. Patrons get several exclusive rewards for doing that. You can see them at patreon.com/joinus. And a special shout-out this week to my new Join Us in France champions: Lisa Buehler and Donna. And thank you, Becky, Rob Eggman, and Paul Trainer for editing your pledge up.
Annie Sargent: It’s always a pleasure to see people joining and then editing up because they enjoy the content so much.
Annie Sargent: Would you join them, too? You can do it for as little as three dollars a month, but if you can afford it, I would love to have you pledge more so you can have access to more of the rewards. Go to patreon.com/joinus.
Annie Sargent: And to support Elyse, go to patreon.com/elysart.
Annie Sargent: This past week, I had my Zoom meeting with patrons, where I answered their questions and gave my own trip report for the places I’ve visited since we talked last month. It’s a lot of fun always.
[00:54:30] VoiceMap Tour Review and Exclusive Discounts
Annie Sargent: Somebody left this review of my Marais VoiceMap tour this week. "Annie Sargent sets the bar for VoiceMap tours, interesting routes, well-defined, keeps you moving and learning even while walking. You definitely will find something you would never have seen on your own. On this tour, the walk through the courtyard is a quiet little path I will be using. Thank you."
Annie Sargent: I think I know the one you mean, and yes, that’s a good trick.
Annie Sargent: VoiceMap is like having your own private tour guide in your pocket. You can pause whenever you want, grab a coffee, explore a side street, and the tour picks right back up when you’re ready. No rushing, no schedule to follow.
Annie Sargent: Podcast listeners get an exclusive discount when you buy these tours directly from my website. That’s also the best way to support the show because it means more of what you pay comes straight to me instead of going through Apple or Google.
[00:55:28] Itinerary Consulting Services
Annie Sargent: And if you’re planning a trip to France and would like some expert help, you can hire me as your itinerary consultant.
Annie Sargent: If you already have a plan, I’ll help you fine-tune it, and if you’re just feeling overwhelmed by all the choices, and there are a lot of them, and not sure what sources to trust, I can design a custom plan for you. You’ll find all the details at joinusinfrance.com/boutique.
[00:55:51] JR’s Pont Neuf Art Installation
Annie Sargent: Let’s talk about the big art installation coming to Paris in June 2026.
Annie Sargent: This is JR’s next big project, turning the Pont Neuf into a cave. This is one of those only-in-Paris kind of moments. The street artist and photographer, JR, you might have seen his gigantic black-and-white photo collages on monuments all over the world.
Annie Sargent: He is planning to transform the Pont Neuf in Paris into a kind of a hundred and twenty meter-long rocky cave.
Annie Sargent: Yes, the oldest bridge remaining in Paris is going to look like it’s carved out of stone, which it kind of is, but a different kind of stone. The project is a deliberate homage to Christo and Jeanne-Claude, the legendary artist who wrapped the same bridge in fabric back in nineteen eighty-five.
Annie Sargent: And for Christo and Jeanne-Claude, getting permission to do that was a ten-year administrative marathon.
Annie Sargent: JR, by comparison, got the green light almost immediately, a sign that Paris today is much more open to large-scale artistic interventions than it used to be.
Annie Sargent: The installation will run 6-28 June, 2026. And people will be able to walk straight through it, day and night.
Annie Sargent: No ticket, no barriers. It’s meant to be a fully immersive experience right in the middle of the city. The bridge will remain open to pedestrians, but cars and buses will be rerouted during the installation.
Annie Sargent: Just like Christo’s original project, JR’s cave will be a huge technical challenge.
Annie Sargent: The structure will be made mostly of fabric, anchored, and engineered to withstand wind, rain, and the constant movement of one of Paris’s busiest sites.
Annie Sargent: JR says he’s working with engineers and builders from many different fields, and that hundreds of people are involved in bringing the project to life.
Annie Sargent: If you’ve followed JR’s work in Paris, you might remember his massive collage at the Louvre Pyramid in 2019, or the cave he created over the façade of the Opera Garnier in 2023.
Annie Sargent: This new installation continues in that vein: monumental, temporary, and designed to change the way we look at a familiar landmark. One more important detail, the whole project is financed through private patronage, just like Christo and Jeanne-Claude’s work, no public funds involved.
Annie Sargent: So if you’re going to be in Paris in June 2026, add this to your list.
Annie Sargent: It’s not every day you’ll get to walk through a giant art cave suspended over the Seine River.
Annie Sargent: My thanks to podcast editors Anne and Christian Cotovan, who produced the transcripts and the audio.
[00:58:51] Next week on the podcast
Annie Sargent: Next week on the podcast, an episode with Rick McGuirk about how much you can do in one day in Paris, if you know what you’re doing, that is.
Annie Sargent: He had an intense visit to Paris, sandwiched between business meetings.
Annie Sargent: Thank you so much for listening, and I hope you join me next time so we can look around France together. Au revoir!
[00:59:14] Copyright
Annie Sargent: The join us in France Travel Podcast is written, hosted, and produced by Annie Sargent and copyright 2026 by Addicted to France. It is released under a Creative Comments, attribution, non-commercial, no derivatives license.
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